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Category 6 => Religious - => Topic started by: Ruhi_Rose on February 09, 2021, 11:38:02 pm



Title: Difference between  روح and نفس  (ruh and nafs)
Post by: Ruhi_Rose on February 09, 2021, 11:38:02 pm



As-Salam Alaykum my dear MV folks.     I find this topic truly interesting.   But I need to brush up my knowledge on it.   I really don't know enough.   

Briefly ....

As for "روح" (Ruh) =  soul.

As for "نفس" (Nafs) = combination or fusion between body and soul.

This is the smallest summary of a very lengthy topic which different Muslim experts have understood in slightly differing ways.   I'm not looking for one of those lengthy thesis-like write-ups, but just a simple analysis in a structural form defining the topic a bit more in detail based on the Islamic perspective of psychology and the human mind would be greatly appreciated.




Title: Re: Difference between   روح  and  نفس   (ruh and nafs)
Post by: Heba E. Husseyn on February 10, 2021, 05:20:50 am



Walaikum As-Salam Sister Ruhi.     You're right.  The subject is protracted and somewhat complex.  There are some differing opinions among our scholars who have studied psychology at length.  But to define the basics makes it fairly simple and congruent. 

Nafs is the human ego or mind that has the potential of functioning from the grossest to the highest level, that is, from negative traits to fine qualities of wisdom, reflection and self control.  In other words, nafs can be referred to as the decision maker, the ego or the mind. 

Ruh or spirit or soul is the spiritual aspect of the human self that connects with Allah The Almighty like during prayers, supplication and contemplation with thoughts of Allah.   Ruh is the soul minus the physical body.

Ruh and the nafs communicate.    Ruh is invisible and intangible and it chooses good or bad through the nafs.  If the nafs is on the right track, the ruh will choose to be right too and find peace in remembering Allah, understanding the purpose of our existence, pondering on other physical beings, on the universe and their purpose etc.

Nafs is sometimes explained as something which is tangible with the opinion that it consists of the soul and the body.   But factually, nafs is intangible too as its an amalgam of ideas within the body (mind).   The brain is surely tangible.  But mind is abstract or invisible which comprises of the nafs.   The soul which is definitely intangible (or invisible) is placed within the human body by the Command of The Almighty.    Complete details about the soul is only known to Allah (The All Knower) as He has stated in Verse 17:85 of Surah Al-Isra.   

While aql is the center of reasoning or intelligence, nafs brings the various emotions (inciting forces) into it.  Therefore, I would say that the mind basically comprises of aql, and nafs is a part of aql.   This can also be explained as follows:  Located in the brain, nafs (one of the aspects of the mind) is responsible for behavioral and emotional responses.    As already stated, while brain is physical, mind is not.  The brain is composed of nerve cells and can be touched, whereas the mind which includes the nafs cannot be touched.

In some or most Quran translations nafs is translated as soul.  This translation is not accurate and for this reason majority of Islâmic scholars consider nafs (soul) and rűh (spirit) to be the same.   Thus in many articles and write-ups you will find that scholars have used the terms ruh and nafs interchangeably.  However after deeper study of the Quran and the human psychology, there are other scholars who maintain that nafs and ruh are two different entities.   Briefly, ruh is the soul, nafs is the ego within the mind. 

The following is a very basic presentation which would help to clarify better.


(https://i.imgur.com/x6J8Y04.jpg)



Related topics:

-  Quranic term Ruh-ul-Qudusi (http://muslimvilla.smfforfree.com/index.php?topic=4800.0)
-  Concept of soul in the Quran (http://muslimvilla.smfforfree.com/index.php?topic=512.0)
-  Heart and Mind Connection (http://muslimvilla.smfforfree.com/index.php?topic=54.0)



    


Title: Re: Difference between   روح  and  نفس   (ruh and nafs)
Post by: Ruhi_Rose on February 10, 2021, 03:59:43 pm



Thanks dear Sister.   Thoroughly logical.   Alhumdulilah.    So, when it is said that the 'nafs meets the heart' or coordinates with the heart, can the connotation be similar to the 'heart and mind' connection?   That would mean, the nafs sending messages to the heart.  Detailed studies reveal messages from different parts within the brain (mind) are sent to the nervous system.  That influences our soul.  Secondly, in various cases, it has an impact on heart health .. the physical heart.     



Title: Re: Difference between   روح  and  نفس   (ruh and nafs)
Post by: N. Truth Seeker on February 10, 2021, 04:07:09 pm


Well analyzed Sister Heba.   If studied carefully, it's totally compatible with the scientific study of the human self. 




Thanks dear Sister.   Thoroughly logical.   Alhumdulilah.    So, when it is said that the 'nafs meets the heart' or coordinates with the heart, can the connotation be similar to the 'heart and mind' connection?   That would mean, the nafs sending messages to the heart.  Detailed studies reveal messages from different parts within the brain (mind) are sent to the nervous system.  That influences our soul.  Secondly, in various cases, it has an impact on heart health .. the physical heart.   


Very good point.    We all know what the ruh (soul or spirit) is.  As for nafs, it's not the same as ruh, and the only entity it corresponds to is the mind .. or maybe certain parts of the mind. 



Title: Re: Difference between   روح  and  نفس   (ruh and nafs)
Post by: Ruhi_Rose on February 10, 2021, 04:23:06 pm



Yes brother, precisely.    On the opinion, which most likely seems correct, that soul and nafs are not the same  .....

For example, let me focus on two Verses of the Noble Quran.

"kulu nafsin zaiqatu al-mawti"  3:185   which translates as follows:  "Every soul will taste of death."  

"Rabbi inni zalamtu nafsi faighfir li"  28:16  which would translate as follows:   "My Rab, indeed I have wronged my soul, so forgive me,"


So, while only Allah Almighty knows best, as an opinion it's very likely that in the above Verses, The Almighty is referring to the nafs or human mind which is the centre of thoughts.  The reference is not directly to the soul as translated.   Am I right? 





Title: Re: Difference between   روح  and  نفس   (ruh and nafs)
Post by: N. Truth Seeker on February 10, 2021, 04:34:35 pm




   .. ...

So, while only Allah Almighty knows best, as an opinion it's very likely that in the above Verses, The Almighty is referring to the nafs or human mind which is the centre of thoughts.  The reference is not directly to the soul as translated.   Am I right? 


Right.   Every nafs will taste death likely refers to every individual.   And if I say that I wronged my nafs, it can logically mean that I wronged myself (the person within me) through my negative thoughts (or negative thoughts of my nafs).  If you follow the wrong prompts of your nafs, you end up hurting yourself which includes your nafs.    However, remember, the nafs influences the soul.  A bad nafs can ruin the soul just as a good nafs can benefit the soul.   So even if the Verses you quoted do directly or indirectly refer to the soul with the mention of nafs, it's still logically correct.    I suppose this is the reason why many scholars consider soul and nafs to be the same.  While in my opinion soul and nafs aren't the same, it's the control of the nafs over the soul that causes confusion in some people who are trying to study and analyze this aspect.






Title: Re: Difference between   روح  and  نفس   (ruh and nafs)
Post by: Zainab_M on February 10, 2021, 04:53:45 pm



Wa'salaam.   Immensely interesting, factual and important subject.  Alhumdulilah.    Very well elucidated right through, Maash'Allah.      As brother said, we all know what exactly the soul is.  And we also know what the physical heart (qalb) is.   It's to understand the precise nature of the nafs that sometimes gets people a bit confused.    But it's actually very simple and straight.  The brain has different parts that control our emotions, happiness, anger, pain etc.    I think it would be correct to recognize the entire process of cognition that ensues from the different parts of the brain as altogether the nafs.  

Nafs influences the soul as well as the qalb in different ways.

Very thoughtfully surveyed Sister Heba.





Title: Re: Difference between   روح  and  نفس   (ruh and nafs)
Post by: Ruhi_Rose on February 10, 2021, 04:58:37 pm



That was additionally helpful, many thanks brother TS and Sister Zeynab. 

Btw, I've heard that in Sufism qalb or heart refers to the spiritual heart not the physical one.   Any opinions on that?




Title: Re: Difference between   روح  and  نفس   (ruh and nafs)
Post by: Zainab_M on February 10, 2021, 05:34:52 pm



  .....
Btw, I've heard that in Sufism qalb or heart refers to the spiritual heart not the physical one.   Any opinions on that?



I've heard that too but I don't understand what the Sufi connotation is.  It's surely not compatible with the mainstream Islamic perspective.  The spiritual entity is the soul.  The nafs is the abstract entity which can be good or bad or mediocre.  The nafs influences the soul intangibly into spiritual obedience or disobedience or neglect.  The nafs can influence the qalb (heart) physically e.g. if nafs is stiring up the emotion of worries in a person, it can effect the physical health of the heart or qalb.   If the ruh or soul is well guided and at peace, it will often lead to a tranquil heart.   The heart is always viewed as a physical organ which gets influenced by the nafs and soul in different ways. 

Qalb and nafs are also intrinsically connected just as the nafs and soul interact.  

If a person suffers a heart attack, in due course of time they also often develop depression, sleep disorders and cognitive problems which ensue from the nafs.   Similarly, if a person is depressed and anxious for a long period of time, they often develop cardiovascular issues.   Also for instance, problems with the blood vessels of the physical heart supplying blood to the physical brain can affect that particular sphere of the brain that controls our memory causing the development of dementia which is an abstract aspect of the mind that can be described as nafs.   

Thus, while heart health is largely dependent on the nafs and ruh, it's the ruh that is spiritual not the heart.    And only Allah knows best.


  


Title: Re: Difference between   روح  and  نفس   (ruh and nafs)
Post by: N. Truth Seeker on February 10, 2021, 06:47:41 pm


Well summed up Sister.   The Sufi perspective divides the function of the ruh (soul) between the ruh and the qalb (heart).   The Sufi psychology says heart isn't a physical organ, that it's spiritual which contains wisdom and higher intellect.  They say that it's the heart that holds the spirit (I suppose they mean the ruh) with spiritual inclination.  Therefore according to Sufism the goal should be to develop a spiritually healthy heart which is compassionate, honest and intelligent.  They hardly talk of the nafs or the abstract feelings created in the mind.   To me this sounds like an important part of the ideology being omitted.    Only Allah would know the extent of its accuracy. 

There are some Verses in the Noble Quran with a reference to the ability of the heart (qalb) reflecting higher intellect.  For e.g. Verse 22:46 of Surah Al-Hajj, quote:  "For indeed it is not the eyes that grow blind, but it is the hearts, which are within the bosoms, that grow blind."  ("al-qulūbu"  meaning 'the hearts').   But in such Verses this expression has been mentioned figuratively NOT literally, referring to the collective interaction of the nafs, ruh and heart for simplifying the Message for the common people who at that time had very little or no knowledge about the psychological functions within the human body.  It's an expression simply in accordance with a grammatical and metaphorical decorum of language. 

Back in those days people didn't know anything about the nafs nor its effect on the physical heart.  So their thoughts took a shortcut presuming that feelings developed in the heart, which traditionally and socially developed into an oratorical parable.  In that era people also knew very little or probably nothing about the soul.  That's one of the reasons they presumed that after death there was nothing .. because the factual concept of the immortality of soul was missing in the society.  For that reason the Arabian Jews, as a test of Prophethood, also asked the Prophet (pbuh) to explain the spirit to them (V.17:85), because the Jews had some knowledge about the spirit or ruh, but the pre-Islamic Arabs didn't.  

 


Title: Re: Difference between   روح  and  نفس   (ruh and nafs)
Post by: Zainab_M on February 10, 2021, 06:51:41 pm



Very wise input, Alhumdulilah.    I'm glad you added this point brother TS.    Plenty of thanks.


Title: Re: Difference between   روح  and  نفس   (ruh and nafs)
Post by: N. Truth Seeker on February 10, 2021, 06:52:49 pm


You're very welcome Sister.


Title: Re: Difference between   روح  and  نفس   (ruh and nafs)
Post by: Ruhi_Rose on February 10, 2021, 06:56:27 pm


Thank you so much, Sister Zeynab and Brother TS.    That was quite a bit of information for me.   I never knew those details about the Sufi approach.


Title: Re: Difference between   روح  and  نفس   (ruh and nafs)
Post by: Heba E. Husseyn on February 10, 2021, 06:58:10 pm



Mash'Allah, very useful additional inputs.   Very informative for me too.


Title: Re: Difference between   روح  and  نفس   (ruh and nafs)
Post by: Ruhi_Rose on February 16, 2021, 09:35:20 pm


(https://i.imgur.com/UYmqIm1.jpg)
Ibn Khalidun


And here's something really interesting folks.  Some Islamic history linked with this topic.   Quoting Assabiya @ twitter (https://twitter.com/Assabiya_/status/1359591045332422657/photo/1)

"As early as the 14th century, Ibn Khaldun considered ...
.. that certain brain capacities such as imagination and memory could each be housed in independent parts of the brain. It was not until the Broca experiments in 1861 that this idea took hold.
"






Title: Re: Difference between   روح  and  نفس   (ruh and nafs)
Post by: Heba E. Husseyn on February 16, 2021, 09:37:35 pm



Subhan'Allah.   wow!   I haven't studied too much within this sphere of Ibn Khalidun's works, but I am thoroughly sure it's true, one hundred percent .. because that man was a genius.   Alhumdulilah.


Title: Re: Difference between   روح  and  نفس   (ruh and nafs)
Post by: Ruhi_Rose on February 23, 2021, 07:57:04 pm



Returning to some aspects of this topic.  My husband and I were focusing on it.  He penned a brief presentation and requested me to put it up on his behalf. 


Quote

In the Islamic perspective as presented by our scholars (particularly to understand the human self) is wholly spiritual and thus intangible - ruh, nafs,ihsas, aql, and qalb - that gives a spiritual dimension to every physical organ from which the intangible ensues.  And no doubt, every tangible has an intangible side.  Qalb is generally referred to as 'spiritual heart.'  But it can also allude to the ruh.  In fact among both Sunni and Shiia Muslims, nafs is generally taken as soul or ruh in the course of  conversations or references. 

In early Arabic literature, nafs meant “self,” or “person.”   To say that someone has wronged their nafs can very logically mean they have wronged themselves. 

Nafs is considered to be the lowest principle of a human being.  Higher than the nafs is the Ruh (spirit).  And if you perceive the spiritual facet of the physical hear (Qalb), that too is considered a higher principle than Nafs though it's lower than Ruh.   Hence, the Ruh, Qalb and Nafs form the broad foundation interconnected to other complicated systems within the human self.  This entire field, starting from the broad foundation to it's relevant connections is basically a subjective study, interpreted with slight differences by different experts.   It's generally the 'urafa' or Muslim mystics (that is, Sufis) who perceive Qalb as the spiritual heart.  Do they also refer to the physical heart as Qalb?   I would think so, as I do not know any other term they mention for it. 

Most importantly, what is confirmed by the Noble Quran and unanimously wholly accepted by all is that every body has 'Ruh' inside the matter body, and when this Ruh is disconnected permanently from the body (that is, when Malik-al-Mawt is sent to take back the Ruh) the person is pronounced dead.  This is only about the Ruh.   There is no such concept about the spiritual heart, unless the spiritual heart is viewed in the same context as the Ruh, just different expressions, which is also the perspective of many experts.

Unquote

😐

And now your frank views dear folks. 




Btw ..  Brother TS mentioned a similar context too




In early Arabic literature, nafs meant “self,” or “person.”   To say that someone has wronged their nafs can very logically mean they have wronged themselves.  


 


Title: Re: Difference between   روح  and  نفس   (ruh and nafs)
Post by: Zainab_M on February 23, 2021, 08:31:54 pm



That's wonderfully put.   Big thanks to your husband.  





This entire field, starting from the broad foundation to it's relevant connections is basically a subjective study, interpreted with slight differences by different experts.   It's generally the 'urafa' or Muslim mystics (that is, Sufis) who perceive Qalb as the spiritual heart.



Absolutely correct.   There are minor differences in perception of different individuals who have studied the human self carefully.   As your husband rightly said, the aspect of soul which is already asserted in the Noble Quran is understood without any differences by all.   The rest of the complexities carry slightly differing approach by various researchers.   Only Allah Almighty has the final answer for everything that He designs.  Subhan'Allah.  This is true in both the Islamic perspective of study and the standard "secular" perspective in the research of human mind and behavior.   After all, the secular perspective analyses and investigates the designs, constructions and arrangements of what is already created by The Almighty much earlier.   It's not the secularists who have planned or created anything. 



Title: Re: Difference between   روح  and  نفس   (ruh and nafs)
Post by: Ruhi_Rose on February 23, 2021, 08:38:27 pm




 ....  The rest of the complexities carry slightly differing approach by various researchers.   Only Allah Almighty has the final answer for everything that He designs.  Subhan'Allah.  This is true in both the Islamic perspective of study and the standard "secular" perspective in the research of human mind and behavior.   After all, the secular perspective analyses and investigates the designs, constructions and arrangements of what is already created by The Almighty much earlier.   It's not the secularists who have planned or created anything. 



So true Sis.   

And thank you from the pit of my heart for your appreciation ☺




Title: Re: Difference between   روح  and  نفس   (ruh and nafs)
Post by: Heba E. Husseyn on February 23, 2021, 09:09:53 pm



I think it's a very thoughtful and comprehensive wrap-up, Mash'Allah.   That's my frank view.  Thank you to your husband. 

Scholars of different schools use these terms in different ways.   But in a general sense, they all refer to the same broad reality that it's the Ruh which is eternal while everything else within the body dies when the Ruh finishes its term and passes out of the body.
 




In early Arabic literature, nafs meant “self,” or “person.”   To say that someone has wronged their nafs can very logically mean they have wronged themselves. 

 


Spot on.  Yeah, brother TS also implied the same in one of his comments.   This makes a lot of sense.  When a person commits a violation, they wrong their Ruh, and prior to that they wrong their own person (the weak Nafs) that prompts them to indulge in a violation and thus ruin their soul.





It's generally the 'urafa' or Muslim mystics (that is, Sufis) who perceive Qalb as the spiritual heart.  Do they also refer to the physical heart as Qalb?   I would think so, as I do not know any other term they mention for it.



Mash'Allah, this is interesting and an excellent point to ponder upon.    Personally I do see the spiritual Qalb as another expression for the Ruh.  When Allah Almighty says in the Noble Quran about the misguided ones that (paraphrasing) it's their hearts that are blind and not the eyes, the sufi category would conclude it to be the 'spiritual heart.'   Actually and quite apparently, it's the same as the Ruh or soul .. when the Ruh, influenced by the Nafs (or can be be influenced by the  Aql) .... gets trapped into negative temptations and turns blind (that is, reprobate).

Indeed it sounds very true that if you view the spiritual Qalb as a different entity from the Ruh, there is no such notion of the spiritual Qalb passing away or being immortal like the Ruh.

A very simple analysis of Arabic grammar.

Heart = Qalb.   Even if you read this as spiritual heart, taken in a physical context it's also referred to as Qalb.  

Now let's look at some variations.

Heartbeat  = نبض القلب (nabz al-qalb)

Heart failure = سكتة قلبية (saktat qalbia)

Heart rate = معدل ضربات القلب (muadal darabat al qalb).
("Darabat" can also be pronounced as 'zarabat' as sisters Ruhi and Zeynab suggested the Urdo enunciation of the 'z' sound instead of 'd' in ض)

Thus, expressions such as heart rate or heart failure etc. carry the physical connotation.  Yet there is no specific term that differentiates between a spiritual and physical Qalb.   Alhumdulilah. 




Title: Re: Difference between   روح  and  نفس   (ruh and nafs)
Post by: Ruhi_Rose on February 23, 2021, 09:18:11 pm


Thank you very much for your opinion Sister Heba.   Your elaboration focusing on Arabic grammar is thought provoking .. Ruh and spiritual Qalb the same and physical Qalb a separate entity. 

And your mention of Aql, can that be taken as the same as Nafs or emotion (ihsas)?




Title: Re: Difference between   روح  and  نفس   (ruh and nafs)
Post by: Heba E. Husseyn on February 23, 2021, 09:48:28 pm



You're very welcome sister.




And your mention of Aql, can that be taken as the same as Nafs or emotion (ihsas)?



Not really.  Well, again, there's the element of subjectivity. 

Aql (as a whole) is more or less commonly accepted as cognition.  Cognition is the mental process of the mind that enables us to make decisions, and a healthy cognitive process helps us to recognize what's logical or suitable or otherwise.   Nafs, in my opinion, is part of the mind linked with emotions, feelings and inclinations.  It can go either way, right or wrong, depending on the strength and will-power of the Nafs.

Sometimes, depending on the perception of the researcher, Nafs is seen as the center of emotions and inclinations.   Some other analysts and clinicians view Nafs as ego.   Yet others view Nafs as the center of inclinations and emotions or ihsas as a separate entity.

For example, see this technical illustration.  It has divided Nafs and Ihsas into separate entities and hasn't specified ego at all.   

(https://i.imgur.com/G1HMCOg.jpg) 



Hence, I prefer sticking to my previous representation.  It's makes sense and is uncomplicated.

(https://i.imgur.com/x6J8Y04.jpg)




Title: Re: Difference between   روح  and  نفس   (ruh and nafs)
Post by: Ruhi_Rose on February 23, 2021, 09:52:06 pm



Subhan'Allah.  That makes it clearer.  Thanks in plenty again Sis.


Title: Re: Difference between   روح  and  نفس   (ruh and nafs)
Post by: Heba E. Husseyn on February 23, 2021, 09:52:52 pm


Very welcome  ..