Registration of new members is currently closed. Guestbook opened for now.  Guests who have questions may post at our guestbook.  No lengthy debates please. Kindly note: MV is a place for serious learning through mutual consultation where we have zero tolerance for trouble-makers, narcissists and needless disputants. We simply stand for what is compatible with the Noble Quran regardless of titles such as "traditionalism" or "modernism." We have the right to our opinion just as you have the right to yours. All disagreements must be left at that. Final Judgement belongs to The Almighty.
MUSLIM VILLA - QURAN ONLY
March 29, 2024, 04:39:33 am
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home Help Search Arcade Gallery Links Staff List Calendar Login Register  

Every Prophet is also Messenger | Prophet Abraham (pbuh) received a Scripture

+-
Shoutbox
November 01, 2023, 03:44:32 pm Zainab_M: Allahhuma ameen .. ameen.
November 01, 2023, 03:43:43 pm Ruhi_Rose: Yes .. making lots of dua everyday ..... watching those real life video clips, my face feels wet with tears all the time.  May ALLAH grant the best to these wonderful, brave & steadfast martyrs,  Ameen ya Allah.
November 01, 2023, 03:38:26 pm Zainab_M: Keep praying, praying a lot for Gaza. It's worse than a prison .. it's a concentration camp.  Children as young as 10 or 11 are having to care for their younger siblings ages 2, 3 and 4 becoz many have lost both parents.  It's a very, very, very tearful situation there.
October 26, 2023, 03:40:19 pm N. Truth Seeker: Don't forget to look up MV Blog Zainab's Lounge for our Gaza updates.
October 20, 2023, 04:24:44 pm Zainab_M: Right sister Heba.  Gaza hospital bombing has the fingerprints of Israel all over it.  For Israel this is no big crime.  They have done this and much worse many times in the past and intend to do the same and worse many more times in near future.
October 20, 2023, 04:20:20 pm Heba E. Husseyn: Catching Zionist lies isn't hard. Soon after Gaza hospital bombing killing and maiming hundreds, Israel was quick to accuse Islamic Jihad of a misfired rocket.  That didn't sound plausible because IJ does not have such sophisticated bombing devices.  Zionist lie was fully exposed when anglican archbishop of Jerusalem,Hosam Naoum,  said today that 3 or 4 days prior to boming Israel had warned Gaza hospital to evacuate. Yet CIA claims in its flawed analysis that the rocket did not come from Israel.  But conveniently does not explain how Israel could have known 4 days earlier that a "misfired" rocket from IJ was coming.  Yet on the basis of this flawed & bias analysis of CIA, Biden is comforting Israel he believes Israel didn't do that war crimes bombing.
July 29, 2023, 03:02:07 am Zainab_M: Yesterday was Ashura, Muharram 10, 1444 (July 27, 2023).  Read about this very tragic day and details of the world's greatest 7th century revolutionary: WHO WAS HUSSEIN.
June 28, 2023, 09:48:39 am Zainab_M: Walaikum As Salaam.  This was the first Hajj open to all after the pandemic. It was attended by 2.6 million Muslims.
View Shout History
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Send this topic  |  Print  
Author Topic: Every Prophet is also Messenger | Prophet Abraham (pbuh) received a Scripture  (Read 892 times)
0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.
Ruhi_Rose
TEAM MUSLIM VILLA The Avid Reader | Mom of 3 cute rascals
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6287



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« on: June 03, 2008, 11:35:29 pm »



BismAllah ..


Everyone knows that Prophet Musa (Moses) [pbuh] received a Divine Scripture referred to as the Ten Commandments.  But I have heard many Muslim scholars, and also many Christians say that Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham) [pbuh] communicated with Almighty Allah but did not receive any revealed Book.  On this basis, many Muslims call him a Prophet but not a Messenger.

First I would say that in the Quran, there's no difference between a prophet and a messenger.  They mean one and the same thing.  In some verses, Allah uses the word 'Prophet' while in certain other verses He uses the term 'Messenger.'  But both carry the same meaning and same sense.  'Messenger' (rasool) is a term that's also used for angels in the Quran.  The decision of Allah for choosing a person to deliver His Message to humanity makes that person a prophet.  And the act of delivering Allah's Message to humanity makes that person a messenger.  Every chosen person of Allah is first bestowed with prophethood and then comes the responsibility messengership, that is, to deliver the Divine Message to the world.  It's as simple as that.

Coming to the subject, I quote the last six verses of Surah Al-Aala from which it's evident that Prophet Abraham (pbuh) also received a scripture.  And Allah's Scripture can only come down to His chosen people through revelations.  Obviously and unfortunately, the Book that was sent to Abraham wasn't preserved at all and is completely lost.  But the following Verses apparently indicate that Prophet Abraham definitely received a Book.

 He is successful who grows,
 And remembers the name of his Rab, so prays,
 But you prefer the life of the world
 Although the Hereafter is better and more lasting.
 Indeed, this is in the former scrolls.
 The Books of Abraham and Moses.

(Surah Al-Aala, 87:14-19)



Related post:
Difference between prophet and messenger.



P.S. Sister Ruhi, many thanks for this post carrying a very important clarification.  Just to inform you, I've made a slight addition to the title for the purpose of making it a sticky post.  Salaams dear sister. 

Sister Zainab
Report Spam   Logged

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter

Heba E. Husseyn
TEAM MUSLIM VILLA Villa Artisan
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4974



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2008, 08:34:49 pm »



Thank you for mentioning this sister Ruhi.  this is very important information which, as it seems, most people overlook or don't remember.

There's no doubt that in the Quran the words 'prophet' and 'messenger' carry exactly the same meaning.  It is the cunning R. Khalifa movement that has tried to present a difference between these two terms only to achieve their own selfish goal.  That's because they are violators of the Quran and they propagate the lie that Khalifa was a messenger.  For this purpose they've devised a lie against Allah by saying that Quran mentions end of prophethood, which they manipulate as not including 'messengers.'  Our readers are advised to beware of the misinterpretations of such cults and not get misguided.

Whether you call them 'Prophets' or 'Messengers' - makes no difference.  All of them were chosen by Allah.  It's possible that some might not have received enough systematic revelations that were or could have been compiled into a Book.  And many did receive revelations that were compiled into a Book.  They can all be addressed as either Prohets or Messengers, of which Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was the last one.   There are some who try to say that Prophet Abraham (pbuh) was a 'Prophet' and not a 'messenger' because he did not receive a Book.  That is wrong.  He did receive a Book.  Moreover, even if Allah had not mentioned about giving him a Book, yet Allah has made it very clear that Abraham was a chosen slave of His, which makes Abraham a prophet or a messenger - whichever term you prefer.  They both mean the same.

Shokran.  Salam / peace!


Report Spam   Logged

N. Truth Seeker
Quiet guy technology nerd | TEAM MUSLIM VILLA
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4347



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2008, 07:34:06 pm »


Thanks for this sister Ruhi.  Of course I've read this verse but couldn't recall it in the context you explained till I actually read it now.  Yes, it means Prophet Ibraheem ( pbuh ) must have received a specific Book from Allah.  But as usual with all Scriptures before the Quran, the one given to Prophet Ibraheem also was lost by the carelessness of the people.  I also completely agree about the impropriety of the nasty manipulation to bring about a difference between the terms 'prophet or nabi' and 'messenger or rasool.'  There is no difference between them and people only indulge in these unnecessary matters to change the Divine values by putting wrong ideas in the minds of others.  Of course they do it for the purpose of propagating those wrong ideas of their own.
Report Spam   Logged

Zainab_M
TEAM MV Founder
Admin
Hero Member
*
Posts: 6318



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2008, 10:32:51 pm »


Alhamdulilah, very wise post sister Ruhi.  I've also been of the firm view that there's no difference between a prophet and a messenger.  Every prophet brought a Message from Allah.  This makes every prophet a messenger, which automatically means every messenger is a prophet. 

Some people try to make distinctions between the term 'prophet' and 'messenger' saying 'prophets' don't receive revelations or Scriptures and messengers do.  This is a very wrong presumption.  Based on this incorrect presumption, these people claim that Abraham (pbuh) was a Prophet and not a messenger because they say that he did not receive a Scripture.  I don't know how people circulate such wrong information.  Don't they read the Quraan? You are very correct in citing those verses from the Noble Quraan that indicate Prophet Abraham (pbuh) received a Scripture through revelations.  I'm quoting another verse as follows which again indicates that Prophet Abraham and all his descendents (peace on them all) also received Divine revelations. Moreover, whether it's about receiving Divine revelations or Divine Scripture, it means the same as far as a prophet's communication with Allah is concerned.  Divine Scripture is a collections of Divine revelations.  Therefore, the terms Divine Scripture and Divine revelations constitute the same meaning.

Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered. (2:136 Al-Baqrah)

Thank you sister.  Salaam and peace.

Report Spam   Logged

Ahmad Bilal
Guest

Badges: (View All)
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2008, 05:22:06 pm »

 salamem everyone!

There's definately proof that Ibraheem received some type of Scripture from God, so I agree with that. However, I disagree with the concept of "prophet" and "messenger" meaning the same thing. The Quraan clearly refutes that whole argument. The clearest verse where this is demonstrated is:

"We did not send before you any messenger nor a prophet, without having the devil interfere in his wishes. Allah then nullifies what the devil has done. Allah perfects His revelations. Allah is Omniscient, Most Wise." (Quraan 22:52)

If they meant the same thing, it would make no sense for God to say "MESSENGER NOR A PROPHET" - so, they're obviously different. Also, the two could be catagorized together if every "messenger" was also called a "prophet" in the Quraan, but this isn't the case either. The messengers Hud, Saleh, and Shuaib are never called "prophets", they are only called "messengers", and that separates them from the ones called "prophets" in the Scriptures like Moses, Abraham, Jesus, etc. So, the "prophets" and the "messengers" can't be the exact same thing...

Salaam
Report Spam   Logged
Zainab_M
TEAM MV Founder
Admin
Hero Member
*
Posts: 6318



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2008, 09:24:58 pm »


Sub: Every Prophet is also a Messenger.  Link between Nabi (Prophet) and Messenger (Rasool) is inseparable.

No brother bilal, no.  You are wrong.  I have read the Noble Quraan again and again and each time I've come to the firm conclusion that the terms 'prophet' and 'messenger' carry percisely the same meaning.  They are just two different sounding words of the Arabic language with exactly the same function .. just the way there are many vocabularies in the English language that carry the same meaning. Every Prophet is also a Messenger.  Link between Nabi (Prophet) and Messenger (Rasool) is inseparable.

Your argument using Verse 22:52 to presume that prophet and messenger are the same is a thoroughly fallacious approach.  That is because you are not studying this verse in the context of the complete Quraanic ideology.  In this verse "any messenger nor a prophet" is NOT an indication of the two being different.  It's simply a comprehensive vocabulary of expression from the view point of total clarification - just as one might write in simple English on a specific practical issue saying "there was neither a notifcation nor a warning."  Needless to say, the terms "notification" and "warning" have exactly the same status because the term "notification" in this context implies to caution or an advice to beware, that is, "warning."

According to your apparent logic, anyone who tries to spread an ideology (spiritual or non-spiritual) can be called a 'messenger' .. but that's only according to the rules of the language.  Even a person working to transmit a spiritual ideology can be called a 'messenger' as per the rules of the language, but NOT as per the ideology of the Quraan.  That is because when the Quraan mentions the term "Messenger" it refers to a person who's selected by the Divine Power to deliver a Divine Message through Divine Inspiration.  Therefore, do not forget that there is a huge difference between being a Messenger of the Divine Message through Divine Inspiration or simply spreading one's own presumptuous interpretations of any ideology and thus being defined as a 'messenger' as per the rules of grammar.  

If the Quraan meant to put up a specific difference between prophets and messengers, Allah would have specified that just the way Allah has specified every vital aspect in the Noble Quraan.  But Allah has NEVER specified anywhere that 'prophets' and 'messengers' are two separate categories - NEVER! 

Here's the huge fallacy of the no.19 deceit.  They say that since Hud, Saleh, and Shuaib are named as "messengers" so they aren't Prophets because they didn't receive any Scriptures.  But what's the proof that they didn't receive any Scriptures?  Has Allah stated specifically that they didn't receive any revelations in the form of a scripture?  Did Allah say or even hint on the notion that we should refrain from calling them prophets? Of course NOT, we know that that's not the case.  Secondly, no.19 supporters define prophets on the basis of them receiving scriptures.  Now, as for Abraham, David, Moses, Jesus son of Mary, and Muhammad did receive known Scriptures.  But in the cases of Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Job, Joseph, Zackariah, John, Elias, Ismail, Elisha, Jonah, Lot and Idris - there are no specifications of being given a Scripture.  However, like in the case of Hud, Saleh and Shuaib, this is no reason for us to presume that Allah didn't reveal any Scriptures to any of them at all.  Now here's the no.19 deceivers' discrepancy.  Since they make distinctions between prophets and messengers on the basis that the former received scriptures and the latter didn't, in that case they contradict themselves brazenly because (as per my above citings) the Quraan has given no indications of giving a Scripture to several of those whom the no.19 scheme has categorized as prophets.  Another big fallacy of the no.19 scheme is where they blatatly contradict their own argument is - they categorize Aaron (brother of Moses) as a prophet and not messenger.  Aaron is the only one about whom we can be quite sure that he didn't receive a Scripture because he was given the task by Allah to accompany and help his brother Moses.  The Scripture Torah was given to Moses, not to Aaron.  Nor can we say that the Torah was revealed to both Moses and Aaron.  The Quraan gives NO reasons to presume this and makes it crystal clear that the Torah was the Book given to Moses.  Yet, as per the Quraan, we know very well that Aaron was also a chosen person of Allah.  And as per Quraanic values, Aaron can either be called a "Prophet" or a "Messenger."  Both carry the same meaning.

And here's a careful analysis of both the terms - 'Prophet' and 'Messenger' in the light of the Quraan and also regarding more general aspects of language.
 
Prophet = The spiritual meanings of the term "prophet" as per the dictionary would be:
 
- a person who speaks by divine inspiration or as the interpreter through whom the will of God is expressed.

- Or, A person gifted with profound moral insight and exceptional powers of expression.
 
A more unspiritual dictionary interpretation of the term 'prophet' would be:

- The chief spokesperson of a movement or cause.
 
With regard to the Prophets mentioned in the Quraan, all three above meanings apply.  Every Prophet whom Allah sent to the people of their community spoke to their people not on their own accord but at the behest of Allah, and they were all the source through whom the Will of Allah Almighty was experssed to the rest of humankind.  All Prophets faced great opposition.  But there were also groups of wise people who understood the importance of the Divine Message brought by each Prophet.  These wise people who desired guidance recognized their Prophets as the leader of the movement of the monotheistic Faith .. the movement being carried out at the inspiration and commands of Allah through the Prophets.
 
Messenger = Even according to the modern dictionary, one of the meanings of 'messenger' is defined as 'prophet.'  

Other general interpretations of 'messenger' include:

-  A person employed to carry telegrams, letters, or parcels

-  A military or official courier

-  A forerunner; a harbinger

As we know, in the Quraan, the term 'messenger' corresponds to the meaning 'a forerunner or a harbinger' of good news, that is, Allah's Message.
 
Now compare the two meanings of 'prophet' and 'messenger.'  Since 'messenger' in the Quraan is very, very clearly described as a harbinger of Allah's Message and commandments, it corresponds to precisely the same meaning as that of a 'prophet' which is, interpreter through whom the Will of God is expressed.
 
It's a very simple point to understand which has been simplified still more in the Glorious Quraan.  Yet I don't know why some people are just bent upon twisting it around.  The lack of Allah's respect and fear in their hearts is appaling.

In the Glorious Quraan whether the person is referred to as a "Prophet" or a "Messenger"  makes no difference because they have the same status and duties.  They all brought messages from Allah Almighty to warn the people, and they all received these messages through Divine Inspiration, that is, Divine Revelations.  They were all chosen people of Allah Almighty. Whether or not the Divine Revelations were compiled into a Book is not the point here.  The point is, all Prophets chosen by Allah communicated with Allah through Divine Revelations.  The purpose of these Divine Revelations was to convey Allah's Message to the people.  Thus, every Prophet was definitely a Messenger. They were all chosen people of Allah Almighty.  No one can possibly be a Messenger bringing the Divine Message without being a Prophet and vice-versa, making the link between Prophet and Messenger inseparable.  Allah has also stated in the Quraan that it's incumbent upon believers to believe in and respect all prophets / messengers sent by Allah and it's not for us to make "distinctions" between any of them.  The Quraan gives absolutely NO reason to conclude that 'prophet' and 'messenger' have different responsibilities or that one didn't receive revelations while the other did.

This wranggling about creating a difference between the two has arisen after Rashid Khalifa's massive fraud of no.19 scheme so that he could cunningly keep an avenue open to declare himself a false "messenger" by twisting and manipulating Verse 33:40 of the Noble Quraan.  We throw such evil manipulations straight into the garbage.  That goes without saying!  How depraved a human mind can be who doesn't even have any reservations to alter and distort the Divine Ideology of the Great Quraan for the purpose of acquiring worldly attention.

Verse 33:40 says: Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things.   

Thus, a "Seal" on the coming of Prophets automatically puts an end to the chain of Messengers as well.  That's a confirmed fact.

Sorry for my late response.  I had somehow not seen your comments earlier.

This thread is now closed.

Thanks, Walaikum Salaam and peace.
Report Spam   Logged

Zainab_M
TEAM MV Founder
Admin
Hero Member
*
Posts: 6318



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2008, 04:14:46 pm »

Since this thread is now locked, I received a PM from br. Persian containing his comments.  With his permission, I am quoting his PM as below because it further explains and completes the contents of my final post in this thread.  This is for everyone's information.

Assalaam Alaikum sister Zeynab.  I very much appreciate your detailed analysis on sister Ruhi's thread leading to the topic on the terms 'Prophet' and 'Messenger' being inseparable. This point should be clear and beyond dispute for anyone with the slightest of insight concerning the Quran. 

Verse 22:52 quoted by br. Ahmed Bilal does not at all mean to differentiate between 'prophet' and 'messenger.' 

I'm totally in agreement in the way you've followed and explained this aspect as one concerning that of language and vocabulary.  In this connection  I wish to put in a few more extra words to further highlight the truth of the fact that terms 'prophet' and 'messenger' are strongly inter-connected and cannot be divided. 

The term 'prophet' means a person who is Divinely inspired and selected by Allah Almighty above other creatures.  The term 'messenger' is used for the same prophet when he is spoken about in reference to delivering the Divine message on the orders of God.  All prophets were selected and inspired by Almighty God to deliver His message.  Therefore, all prophets are messengers as well - a very obvious and simple logical point - refuting which would surely mean refuting the Quranic ideology and commandments. 

This is what's reflected in Verse 33:40. 
Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things.

Allah (The Highest) first refers to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as the person who's duty was to bring Allah's message to the people (that is, being a messenger), and then Allah refers to the same Prophet Muhammad as the person who marks an end to the Divine process of selecting and inspiring a suitable person for the purpose of delivering His message (that is, selection of a prophet).  This Verse makes it clear without the shadow of a doubt that prophethood and messengership are strongly interwoven and cannot be differentiated in any way.  Prophethood is the first step towards being the messenger of God.  When the process of prophethood itself is sealed,  there can be NO question of the coming of a messenger bringing Divine message.  Anyone who makes such a claim after the passing away of the final Prophet and Messenger of Almighty Allah, Muhammad (pbuh), is an imposter and a liar.


I also understand and appreciate the idea of making that thread sticky and locking it.  You have amply clarified the truth of this matter.  Rejoinders by those few who think otherwise would only spew falsehood.   After all, once the truth has been established, all what remains is falsehood.

Thanks for your very insightful and genuine efforts to establish the truth and expose falsehood.

Br. PT



Thanks very much br. Persian.  Your perception comes very well.  The term "Mesenger" in the Quraan does not refer to an earthly messenger carrying business letters and documents from one office to another.  It refers to receiving the Divine Message and conveying it to the people.  For a person to receive such a Divine Message, he first has to be inspired by Allah through revelations so that he will be aware that he has been chosen by Allah.  This Divine inspiration makes that person a "Prophet." And when this prophet begins delivering Allah's Messages which he also receives through Divine revelations, it makes him a "Messenger" as well.

E.g.  Prophet Mohammed's (pbuh) initial experience at Mount Hira when he first saw Angel Jibreel revealing the first verses of the Noble Quraan (Surah 96) was when the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) became aware that he was inspired by Allah and was chosen to be a Prophet.  Then, the task of delivering Allah's messages (that is, the  contents of the Quraan) to the world made him a Messenger of Allah.  Thus, when the Prophet (pbuh) is discussed as a person, he is referred to as a "Prophet."  And when he is discussed in connection with spreading the Quraanic commandments, he is referred as a "Messenger."

Also note, the word "Apostle" too used often while writing about Prophets / Messengers.  According to the spiritual dicitonary it means

- a passionate supporter (of the Divien Message)
- a strong adherent (of the Divine Message)
- a messenger (of the Divine Message)

It is more than evident that Prophet / Messenger / Apostle mean one and the same with exactly the same status.

Many thanks again brother.  salaams and peace to you.
Report Spam   Logged


Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Send this topic  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal
Scammers & spammers will be reported | © If you borrow MV contents you must mention our link with hypertext | MV Team is not responsible for comments by members or guests.
Bookmark this site! | Upgrade This Forum
SMF For Free - Create your own Forum


Powered by SMF | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines
Privacy Policy