Registration of new members is currently closed. Guestbook opened for now.  Guests who have questions may post at our guestbook.  No lengthy debates please. Kindly note: MV is a place for serious learning through mutual consultation where we have zero tolerance for trouble-makers, narcissists and needless disputants. We simply stand for what is compatible with the Noble Quran regardless of titles such as "traditionalism" or "modernism." We have the right to our opinion just as you have the right to yours. All disagreements must be left at that. Final Judgement belongs to The Almighty.
MUSLIM VILLA - QURAN ONLY
March 19, 2024, 01:55:46 am
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home Help Search Arcade Gallery Links Staff List Calendar Login Register  

Facts on Circumcision

+-
Shoutbox
November 01, 2023, 03:44:32 pm Zainab_M: Allahhuma ameen .. ameen.
November 01, 2023, 03:43:43 pm Ruhi_Rose: Yes .. making lots of dua everyday ..... watching those real life video clips, my face feels wet with tears all the time.  May ALLAH grant the best to these wonderful, brave & steadfast martyrs,  Ameen ya Allah.
November 01, 2023, 03:38:26 pm Zainab_M: Keep praying, praying a lot for Gaza. It's worse than a prison .. it's a concentration camp.  Children as young as 10 or 11 are having to care for their younger siblings ages 2, 3 and 4 becoz many have lost both parents.  It's a very, very, very tearful situation there.
October 26, 2023, 03:40:19 pm N. Truth Seeker: Don't forget to look up MV Blog Zainab's Lounge for our Gaza updates.
October 20, 2023, 04:24:44 pm Zainab_M: Right sister Heba.  Gaza hospital bombing has the fingerprints of Israel all over it.  For Israel this is no big crime.  They have done this and much worse many times in the past and intend to do the same and worse many more times in near future.
October 20, 2023, 04:20:20 pm Heba E. Husseyn: Catching Zionist lies isn't hard. Soon after Gaza hospital bombing killing and maiming hundreds, Israel was quick to accuse Islamic Jihad of a misfired rocket.  That didn't sound plausible because IJ does not have such sophisticated bombing devices.  Zionist lie was fully exposed when anglican archbishop of Jerusalem,Hosam Naoum,  said today that 3 or 4 days prior to boming Israel had warned Gaza hospital to evacuate. Yet CIA claims in its flawed analysis that the rocket did not come from Israel.  But conveniently does not explain how Israel could have known 4 days earlier that a "misfired" rocket from IJ was coming.  Yet on the basis of this flawed & bias analysis of CIA, Biden is comforting Israel he believes Israel didn't do that war crimes bombing.
July 29, 2023, 03:02:07 am Zainab_M: Yesterday was Ashura, Muharram 10, 1444 (July 27, 2023).  Read about this very tragic day and details of the world's greatest 7th century revolutionary: WHO WAS HUSSEIN.
June 28, 2023, 09:48:39 am Zainab_M: Walaikum As Salaam.  This was the first Hajj open to all after the pandemic. It was attended by 2.6 million Muslims.
View Shout History
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Send this topic  |  Print  
Author Topic: Facts on Circumcision  (Read 1415 times)
0 Members and 7 Guests are viewing this topic.
AceOfHearts
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 281




Badges: (View All)
« on: January 19, 2009, 09:22:17 am »

Facts on Circumcision

QuranicPath | Facts on Circumcision

1) Prophet Ibrahim & circumcision:

Circumcision of the Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham) is actually not in the Qur'an. The Qur'an deals extensively with Prophet Ibrahim and it mentions nothing of him being circumcised. Rather it was his faith and commitment to Allah's path which was stressed through out the Qur'an and which is to be followed. Allah tells us about Prophet Ibrahim's true devotion to Him alone extensively in the Qur'an and states:

"Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to Allah, does good work, and follows the way of Ibrahim who was true in Faith? For Allah did take Ibrahim for a friend." (Qur'an 4:125)


We follow the way of Ibrahim by following the religion communicated in the Qur'an.

2) Allah tells us that He has created human beings perfectly:

In numerous Verses of the Qur'an, Allah tells us that He has created everything, as well as human beings, in the most perfect form. For example:

"He the One Who has made PERFECTLY everything He has created: He began the creation of human beings with clay" (Qur'an 32:7)


This means when the baby leaves the mother's womb, he or she is in the most perfect of shape down to the finest detail. Nothing needs alteration. With regards to this, Allah states the following:

"Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the BEST OF ALL CREATORS!" (Qur'an 23:14)


In another verse, Allah states:

"The work of Allah who has PERFECTED everything (He created)." (Qur'an 27:88)


These verses as well as other verses, tell us that Allah creates the human being, male and female, perfectly in the mother's womb. Allah did not make a 'mistake' in designing the foreskin of the male. He does not need mankind to take a knife and start cutting off bits from all males, as if though it is a corrective procedure. The proponents of circumcision say there are hygiene reasons behind them doing this. This is actually an insult against Allah. HAD IT BEEN BETTER, Allah would have designed all male babies without the bit of the foreskin - as ALLAH HAS PERFECTED His creation as is stated in numerous verses in the Qur'an.

There is actually no hiding from this argument. The proponents of circumcision try to side-track these verses. Most of the time, they have never read verses such as the above, because they are busy with reading books written by man.

3) Satan's pledge to change Allah's creation:

The Satan pledges to make mankind alter bits of what Allah has created. Allah tells us this information in the following Verse:

"[Satan said] I will lead them astray and fill them with false hopes. I will command them and they will cut off cattle's ears. I will command them and they will change Allah's creation. Anyone who takes Satan as his protector in place of Allah has clearly lost everything. He makes promises to them and fills them with false hopes. But what Satan promises them is nothing but delusion." (Qur'an 4:119-120)


4) Hadiths on circumcision:

NONE of the Hadiths on circumcision attributed to the Prophet, differentiate between male or female and in fact indicate females should also be "circumcised"! Because of this feature of the Hadiths, many so called Muslim clergyman have passed verdicts that it is mandatory for females to be "circumcised". This practice of "female circumcision" is widespread in many parts of Africa today because of these deviated teachings and lies preached by these leaders.

In fact, traditionalists can be challenged to this: Show them all the hadiths on the subject and ask why do you not circumcise your daughters? A very confused look can be observed!

In SUMMARY:

1) The Qur'an does not indicate that Prophet Ibrahim was circumcised, even though the Qur'an deals extensively with Prophet Ibrahim.
2) When the baby leaves its mother, it needs NO CUTTING off, of any part of its body as Allah says He makes the baby in PERFECT form.
3) Satan pledges to make mankind manipulate Allah's creation, and gives the example of cutting off bits of the body.
4) None of the hadiths to do with circumcision differentiate between male or female circumcision and there are hadiths that indicate females should also be "circumcised": The hadith basis for male circumcision IS THE SAME basis for female circumcision.

The believer's duty is to abide by the values, teachings and morals of the Qur'an. These are the true values of the Prophet. He or she does not pretend to not grasp the truth when shown. The Qur'an is the only guide to the way of peace and salvation for all believers. Due to all the points in this article, male and female circumcision do not hold any grounding in Allah's true religion. Parents reading this, who are still considering circumcising their child must also think that their child should be given his own choice in having such a sensitive part of the body operated on and the rest of his life affected as a result.

Report Spam   Logged

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter

Heba E. Husseyn
TEAM MUSLIM VILLA Villa Artisan
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4968



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2009, 03:26:45 pm »


4) None of the hadiths to do with circumcision differentiate between male or female circumcision and there are hadiths that indicate females should also be "circumcised": The hadith basis for male circumcision IS THE SAME basis for female circumcision.

Assalam aalikum brother.  I recall we already had a detailed discussion on this topic more than a year ago in a thread where we reflected upon Verses 4:119 and 2:177. It was vigorously clarified from my side that modern day male circumcision has nothing to do with the Noble Quran.  It also has nothing to do with Hadith nor the Bible.  It isn't a religious dictate at all.  It's a purely medical procedure.  

Even if according to the Hadith the basis of male and female circumcision is the same (whatever that 'basis' might be), it's surely NOT the same according to the modern medical profession.  As per modern medicine female circumcision is needless and medically unethical, while male circumcision carries various benefits (as stated in the link we discussed) and has no drawbacks, neither immediate nor long term.  It's a simple medical procedure like many others.  All these are proven beyond doubts.  For this reason circumcision of male babies is done even more meticulously in hospitals of secular Western countries like USA, Canada, UK and Western Europe.  All these people aren't crazy .. at least not in this field.  They wouldn't preform this precedure if it was as unnecessary as you claim.  It's also helpful to do some practical research on issues we write with such surety.  If you're living in the West, I'd suggest, before writing more on this, kindly contact some surgeons or pediatricians of your area and ask them for information.  

What puzzles me is that I don't know why you rigidly keep associating this issue with Faith.  However, male circumcision does improve the aspect of hygiene and Quran lays emphasis on cleanliness that could rationally go beyond washing externally with soap & water.  So, those who want to look at it this way, it's no big sin to keep fretting about so much.  

It's female circumcision that's uncalled for medically.  It's an old social tradition that sporadically takes place in rural areas of some backward countries, not all.  I also have to say, that even in those conventional communities where female circumcision is practiced, it's not as rampant as portrayed by the Western media.  

Needless to say, you have every right to your opinion as we all do.  But I totally disagree with you here.  Your view is misplaced per se.  It's being made to drift in the wrong direction because it's being looked thru an inappropriate & narrow prism.

Walaikum salam brother and peace to you.
Report Spam   Logged

AceOfHearts
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 281




Badges: (View All)
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2009, 08:33:03 pm »


Peace Sr Cat

Hope you and your family are all well Smiley

I think we just gotta agree to differ on this.

btw, someone on another forum has pointed out a hadith in Bukhari which indicates Prophet Ibrahim was circumcised, so I was wrong in this regard. I have edited the article to reflect this. Sorry about the error.
Report Spam   Logged
Heba E. Husseyn
TEAM MUSLIM VILLA Villa Artisan
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4968



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2009, 03:09:31 am »

Walaikum salaam brother ace Smiley  Alhumdulilah we're fine, hope the same for you and your family. 

No problem brother.  I'm more than willing to 'agree to disagree.'   teethsmile   But just gotta say .... with your kinda logic on this topic, the surgical wing of every hospital in the world will hav ta  close   Cheesy including veterinary clincs  Grin
Report Spam   Logged

Zainab_M
TEAM MV Founder
Admin
Hero Member
*
Posts: 6318



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2009, 06:37:33 pm »

Salaam Alaikum

I totally disagree with female circumcision, as do all of us.  Hence, I'll only comment on male circumcision as per my perception. 

I guess both brother Ace and sister Cat agree that circumcision is not a Quraanic issue.  That's of course correct.

I think the basic point on which there's a difference between br.ace and sister cat's view  is that she takes it as a non-religious medical issue while brother's objection arises because of its connection with religion as portrayed by people.  I would say that both are right but she goes a step ahead and therefore covers a larger sphere.  As I grasp it, the sister is focused on circumcision as an intrinsic and practical issue without allowing any man-made religious dictates to influence her mind.  That's certainly a positive stand.  The brother too correctly perceives that circumcision is not a part of Faith, in that, the strong belief in monotheism of a non-circumcised male will not be blemished because of that bodily aspect and vice-versa.  Also, circumcision won't turn a man into a sinner if he is a sincere believer at heart. 

However, as per some of my reflections, I beg to differ on certain references in the original post of this thread by br. ace. 
 
Though the Quraan does not specify circumcision as agreed, it doesn't give any reasons to presume that male circumcision is prohibited either, provided it's done for practical reasons in conformity with civilization and not for superstitious purposes.  Intention behind every act is of utmost importance in the sight of Allah.  I'm sure we all accept that as well.

In continuation ..

On Verse 4:119-120
From my reading of Verses 4:119-120, I would not connect them with the concept of male circumcision.  These Verses refer to mutilation suffered by animals (namely cattle) which was a superstitious practice in pre-Islamic, pagan Arabia.  The idolaters of India still practice it.  I recently came across a news item in an Indian online newspaper that confirms this, and for that reason I saved that story because it was the same practice observed by pagan Arabs centuries ago which the Noble Quraan highlights and condemns in Verse 4:119 onward.  Please check it in the following link and the contents of the last paragraph in particular.
http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/23/stories/2008072351630600.htm
This pagan custom amounts to sinful polytheism because of its superstitious beliefs.  It is surely mutilation and animal cruelty.  Stretching something like this to align it with modern male circumcision would very definitely be a misinterpretation of Verse 4:119.  That's my personal reading.

On perfectionism
My reading of Verse 32:7 and 27:88 on perfectionism also differs to an extent.  The words "He the One Who has made perfectly everything He has created .."  and  "The work of Allah who has PERFECTED everything (He created)." have a very wide application.  It's a general description of the expertise of Allah, meaning the perfection of His planning,  His remarkable ingenuity and the power of His inventiveness or creative imagination in structuring the biological system of all living beings that run as a natural process, enabling each one to survive until death as ordained by Allah.  It also includes the creation and functions of every bit that exists within the earth and heavens -- the entire celestial map.  I wouldn't interpret these Verses as a guarantee of bodily perfection as physical deformities and mental retardations do take place at birth by Allah's will.  Thus, Allah confirms in the Quraan that He casts us in the wombs into whatever shape that pleases Him.  You may think that that's different from circumcision because birth defects are infrequent while all males are born uncircumcised.  From that view-point, it should be left at the discretion of every individual to decide for their children or for themselves.   With this free option, if anyone chooses circumcision, it's very definitely not rejection of perfectionism.  It's just a personal decision as one has the right to care for their bodies they consider best as per their rational thinking.  The Glorious Quraan tells humans (men and women) only to preserve their bodies from acts of immorality (sexual immorality).   But it does not instruct us to look upon our body parts with spiritual reverence on the basis of perfectionism.  Personally, I would consider such a view as a misinterpretation of Quraanic values.

The secular aspect
Coming to the practical side of it, I too have heard & read quite a bit about the medical / hygienic benefits of circumcision which tally with some of those links I saw in the previous thread, hyper-texted here by sister cat.   I also know that there are many people with little education who follow this practice as a ritual without being acquainted with its hygienic advantages.  Indeed such folks need to straighten their perception.  However, in the light of the findings by modern professionals, calling on a ban on circumcision simply as a backlash on those who ignorantly link it to faith would be irrational and retrogressive.

A little on the history of circumcision that I know .. it would help to clarify matters further
I wouldn't label circumcision as a pagan or non-pagan issue.  It surely doesn't seem that way at all.  If you scan through ancient history, you'll find that some non-followers of the Divine Faith practiced circumcision but many of them did not.  E.g. the Hindus of India who are polytheists / idolaters, do not practice circumcision and never did.

The practice of circumcision does not originate from the Bible or Torah or the Hadith.  It's origins are much older than all that.  It's actually been a non-religious practice for males that was practiced in various communities since 3,000 B.C.  Ancient history indicates that it was symbolic of higher civilization, but a purely social one.   It began in Egypt well before the advent of Christianity and Judaism when it was practiced amongst Egyptians and Hebrews.  But the artworks of ancient Greeks and Barbarians of Europe (of pre-Christian era) did not portray men as circumcised.  They aligned circumcision to 'mutilation.'

Now, this is interesting ..

During the era of the Inquisition (alongside the Renaissance) in Europe when the Catholic Church made sure not to loosen its grip on the society, European Christians did not practice circumcision.  The Church prohibited it for two reasons.  First, because Catholic radicalism wanted to make itself different from Judaism.  Secondly, though in its rudimentary stages, the medieval Catholic church disallowed all dissections and surgical procedures.  That was because the Catholic church was against education, particularly the study of medicine & surgery.  For this reason, the university of Venice, where the study of surgery originated during the European Renaissance (second to the Islamic Renaissance that included medicine & surgery from 8th to 13th centuries) was shut down on the orders of the Pope in Rome.  The Church labelled all surgeries and dissections by doctors / medical students as "Satanic acts."  However, at present it's a very different story regarding circumcision.  Majority of  male Christian newborns and all male Jewish babies are circumcised in European and N. American hospitals .. only (as far as I know) the cost is probably not covered by healthcare in welfare states, same as issues such as dentistry, eyecare, physiotherapy etc.  It's just the intent that differs.  The Jews take it as good hygiene in accordance with dictates of religion.  The Christians opt for it only for medical and health reasons.

Among Muslims, it began as a religious dictate from the Hadith and it still is.  But nowadays, with so much of research done on male circumcision giving positive reports and modern surgery being simplified much, many educated Muslims combine the religious and practical aspect of male circumcision.   Personally, I don't see that as a problem at all.

That's as far as I would take it.  I respect the views of everyone but believe in only how I perceive this matter as per my reflections on the Glorious Quraan.  In other words, I agree to disagree on the disagreements as already settled between brother ace and sister cat Smiley

Allah bless

Walaikum Salaam and peace to all 
Report Spam   Logged

AceOfHearts
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 281




Badges: (View All)
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2009, 09:35:09 pm »

Salam to Sr Zainab and Cat.

I have been really busy lately. But anyway, finally got round to this post. I am quite sombre in reading both of your posts.

Salaam Alaikum

I totally disagree with female circumcision, as do all of us.  Hence, I'll only comment on male circumcision as per my perception.  

I guess both brother Ace and sister Cat agree that circumcision is not a Quraanic issue.  That's of course correct.

As you know, my point is that the Qur'an is against circumcision.


I think the basic point on which there's a difference between br.ace and sister cat's view  is that she takes it as a non-religious medical issue while brother's objection arises because of its connection with religion as portrayed by people.

Yes thats part of it, but not all. Im saying the Qur'an DISAPPROVES of circumcision. Quranic verses are against the act of circumcision. This reminds me of Sr Cat's comment:

Quote
But just gotta say .... with your kinda logic on this topic, the surgical wing of every hospital in the world will hav ta  close    including veterinary clincs
 

which is missing the point. A surgery out of need to correct a disorder is different...that is, an abnormality which threatens the life or health of a person. The male foresekin is not an abnormality or threatens the health of the male (yes one has to keep clean - cleaning is normal). Quranically Medical surgery for an illness is very different to circumcision with the reason that it is more hygienic to circumcise. Because Allah made the male system in that way originally, unlike a disorder requiring surgery, as its a disorder. Foreskin is not a disorder. It is a basic matter of hygiene to keep clean there. We all need to have shower, brush our teeth and clean regularly...to cut a part of the body off as a solution is a over-exaggerated un-humane response which begs the question who or what the original instigator of this practice is.

Though the Quraan does not specify circumcision as agreed, it doesn't give any reasons to presume that male circumcision is prohibited either, provided it's done for practical reasons in conformity with civilization and not for superstitious purposes.  Intention behind every act is of utmost importance in the sight of Allah.  I'm sure we all accept that as well.
 

Sister theres plenty of reasons to say circumcision is against the Qur'an - NOT permissible in the Qur'an. Again the "practical reasons" are not reasons at all for such a measure. Not sure what you meant by "conformity with civilisation"?

On Verse 4:119-120
From my reading of Verses 4:119-120, I would not connect them with the concept of male circumcision.  These Verses refer to mutilation suffered by animals (namely cattle) which was a superstitious practice in pre-Islamic, pagan Arabia.  The idolaters of India still practice it.  I recently came across a news item in an Indian online newspaper that confirms this, and for that reason I saved that story because it was the same practice observed by pagan Arabs centuries ago which the Noble Quraan highlights and condemns in Verse 4:119 onward.  Please check it in the following link and the contents of the last paragraph in particular.
http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/23/stories/2008072351630600.htm
This pagan custom amounts to sinful polytheism because of its superstitious beliefs.  It is surely mutilation and animal cruelty.  Stretching something like this to align it with modern male circumcision would very definitely be a misinterpretation of Verse 4:119.  That's my personal reading.
 

You cannot restrict a Verse to such a narrow context. The Qur'an cannot list every examples of cases of changing Allah's creation, neither will the satan! Satan says he will command them to change Allah's creation and then gives an example. Just because he gave this example of cutting of cattle's ears does not mean his influence and work in changing Allah's creation would be restricted to this. It very easily applies to cutting off the male foreskin. Once again, other forms of surgery are different to male circumcision. To illustrate, male circumcision would become valid if a man was suffering from some sort of a disorder (for argument sake) which requires him to circumcise - like any other illness.

The way Allah originally created the male is the best, cutting it off does not improve the condition. If it would, it Allah would have created them in that way instead because He states He is the Best of Creators, the Intelligent. Hygiene is not a reason to circumcision, we have to clean regularly anyway, why does keeping clean become an issue here?

On perfectionism
My reading of Verse 32:7 and 27:88 on perfectionism also differs to an extent.  The words "He the One Who has made perfectly everything He has created .."  and  "The work of Allah who has PERFECTED everything (He created)." have a very wide application.  It's a general description of the expertise of Allah, meaning the perfection of His planning,  His remarkable ingenuity and the power of His inventiveness or creative imagination in structuring the biological system of all living beings that run as a natural process, enabling each one to survive until death as ordained by Allah.  It also includes the creation and functions of every bit that exists within the earth and heavens -- the entire celestial map. I wouldn't interpret these Verses as a guarantee of bodily perfection as physical deformities and mental retardations do take place at birth by Allah's will. [/u]  Thus, Allah confirms in the Quraan that He casts us in the wombs into whatever shape that pleases Him. You may think that that's different from circumcision because birth defects are infrequent while all males are born uncircumcised.

No its not different because of the frequencies of the occurrences, Ill explain in the paragraph below.

I read the above you wrote and reached the first underlined bit and just could not fill in the gaps in logical connection. After stating so much about the perfection of Allah, why would you stop just short of not guaranteeing bodily perfection? The subsequent reason you gave is inadequate in my view. Yes we have some isolated disorders, but these happen not due to a lack of complete perfection in Allah's design...they are occurrences which happens due to unique circumstances particular to that occurrence. The blueprint for human male and female design is perfection which is referred to in the Qur'an, a person born with deviation from this is so because of disruptions and abnormalities unique to that person, a deviation from Allah's perfect design. Part of Allah's perfect design is the male system.  
  
The Glorious Quraan tells humans (men and women) only to preserve their bodies from acts of immorality (sexual immorality).   But it does not instruct us to look upon our body parts with spiritual reverence on the basis of perfectionism.  Personally, I would consider such a view as a misinterpretation of Quraanic values.

Sr Zainab, it does instruct us to 'look upon our body with spiritual reverence on the basis of perfectionism'. All the verses in my first post here indicate this. Another verse also state this is as follows:

"(People), Do you not see that God has lavished His blessings upon you both inwardly and outwardly? Yet some people argue about God without any knowledge, guidance or an illuminating Book". (Qur'an 31:20)

What puzzles me is that I don't know why you rigidly keep associating this issue with Faith.  However, male circumcision does improve the aspect of hygiene and Quran lays emphasis on cleanliness that could rationally go beyond washing externally with soap & water.  So, those who want to look at it this way, it's no big sin to keep fretting about so much.  


Cutting off a part of the body is not a 'rational' solution to a basic hygene problem. I will elaborate below.

The secular aspect
Coming to the practical side of it, I too have heard & read quite a bit about the medical / hygienic benefits of circumcision which tally with some of those links I saw in the previous thread, hyper-texted here by sister cat.   I also know that there are many people with little education who follow this practice as a ritual without being acquainted with its hygienic advantages.  Indeed such folks need to straighten their perception.  However, in the light of the findings by modern professionals, calling on a ban on circumcision simply as a backlash on those who ignorantly link it to faith would be irrational and retrogressive.

Yes, circumcising takes out the need for cleaning but why does cleaning become an issue here? Human beings need to wash and clean regularly different parts of the body. The noise filters air particles during breathing and needs cleaning, we dont just cut it off! Then since when did cutting the private parts become a way to get around the such a 'basic problem'? Who instigated such a so-called solution into the hearts of humanity? And then clearly attempts to extend it as female circumcision too? What or who is the source of this? Does the Qur'an reveal the secret? The answer is yes. And though the male-circumcision hygiene point may be valid, the use of this reason is to cover the inspiration provided by the source of this act - who originated it and is NOT the original reason for the act. Individuals may consider hygiene a reason today, but the instigator of this practice is the master deceiver.

But nowadays, with so much of research done on male circumcision giving positive reports and modern surgery being simplified much, many educated Muslims combine the religious and practical aspect of male circumcision.   Personally, I don't see that as a problem at all.

From experience, most of them if not all, are under the influence of the majority and wish to conform to the norm. And the majority is under the influence of the satan. The reasons for circumcision which they find and you mention, are secondary and serve primarily to comfort them. They would not have come up with such a measure or thought of it in their wildest dreams.

"So much medical research"...please consider this, have you researched the pros of non-circumcision? Because the benefits are greater, and that is why Allah created male in that manner because He is the Best of Creators down to the finest detail in the human being.

This may be hard to get around as being "Qur'an only" means you already realise that majority may be wrong. However, one of the reasons to the view you two are holding are the majority itself. It is such that it is so widespread and sometimes even medically 'recognised'. Suppose circumcision never existed and you never heard of such a thing in your life. One day on the newspaper you read, a man cut his foreskin or a portion of it off in order that he does not have to clean himself. This would come as a shock to you and the world and would be on the TV news everywhere. But since the situation is not as such, this is having an influence on you.

Also, I would like to address Sr Cat and Sr Zainab's use of terms such as "modern circumcision", or "modern day circumcision" etc. which is almost trying to whitewash the true nature of the procedure. The gruesome reality of the procedure is, no matter how you do it it, what you use to do it or how modern you make it - what you are really doing is damaging and injuring a perfectly fine flesh on the human-being...bandaging it...and then waiting for it to heal. It is a large wound which was never meant to happen. And there are also many problems that often occur from this, such as infections and loss of blood from the wound after the procedure - which is frightening for the child and painful. The ensuing severe pain following the wearing off of anaesthesia is tremendous. There are also regular cases of 'surgeon' not carrying it out "properly" depending on what is "proper". Its not a pleasant thing. Take out the name "circumcision", which has become such a tip of the tongue word and consider it in its true reality.

What puzzles me is that I don't know why you rigidly keep associating this issue with Faith.


Like I say, it is against the Qur'an. This makes circumcision an important topic and not just a 'personal matter' with the Qur'an passive on the matter. The Qur'an is not passive on the matter, its against it. I have highlighted circumcision is not like other medical surgery at all and I have shown the Verses, but unfortunately, I feel that both of you are putting restraints on them to accommodate your acceptance of circumcision.

peace.
  
Report Spam   Logged
Zainab_M
TEAM MV Founder
Admin
Hero Member
*
Posts: 6318



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2009, 10:14:08 pm »

Salaam alaikum brother Ace.  Many thanks for taking the trouble for so much detail.  But brother, these are all repetitions of matters already discussed here and in the previous one between you and the sister which I re-checked.  So I really don't think there's any point going over this endless piece again and again.

I think I've put my reasoning very clearly and I consider that to be the case as per my perception.  Only Allah knows best.  

As I see it and as I've suggested already, you do seem to be taking the general verses of the Quraan too specifically and the specfic ones too generally.  Cutting off the animals ears etc.  is reference to pagan custom.  That reference just cannot be made any simpler.  If you think otherwise, that's upto you but I cannot really accept that brother, after Allah has made it so clear.  I have also explained the issue of perfectionism in connection to all the verses which you've quoted and in the light of that, I just don't see how it clashes with the far-fetched notion of forbidding male circumcision.  My conscience does not allow me to expand my interpretations on the basis of my personal likes or dislikes.  Neither can I say to "yes brother, you are right" when in reality I feel otherwise.

BTW - the term "modern circumcision" means carrying out the procedure according to modern methods in hospitals and clinics.  The method implemented a hundred years ago and earlier was a lot more rudimentary with little knowledge of its hygienic benefits from the medical view-point.  This makes male circumcision a different issue today to quite an extent.  Even a kid would know that brother.  And this is what I meant by the term "modern circumcision." 

I repeat .. I will have to leave it right here.  I respect your views, and I'm sure you mean well.  But many steps leading to your conclusions in this connection are deeply flawed.  That's the way I feel.  And I repeat, only Allah knows best.  On the basis of that, I have no desire to be persistent and I'm more than willing to implement the meaning of the phrase 'I agree to disagree.'

Of course, sister Cat will speak for herself, if she so desires.

Thanks again brother.  Take care, walaikum salaam and peace.
Report Spam   Logged

Heba E. Husseyn
TEAM MUSLIM VILLA Villa Artisan
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4968



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2009, 02:00:26 am »

Hmmmm, brother has become a bit too adamant to abolish male circumcision and is taking it up like a jihad.  It's certainly seems weird and physically quite a bit unclean too, excuse me.

After reading the last bit of this thread, I think sister zeynab has given a very balanced and well researched opinion, neither to underestimate nor overestimate the verses of the Quran as stated by the Divine Power.  

I also agree that there are lots of repititions in this thread both from me and the brother .... issues already covered at much greater lengths in thread Open Glorious Qur'an Discussion -(V.4:119).   That's because this is the second post on this topic after it was fully dealt with in the above thread.  So repetitions will be inevitable.

I won't go into Verse 4:119 and into the aspect of perfectionism which have been explained very Quranically and rationally by sister zeynab.  
 
I'll only respond to some of the comments posted by br. ace which stood out as too fallacious in my views.



Yes, circumcising takes out the need for cleaning but why does cleaning become an issue here?

What do you meant brother?  You are a reader of the Quran and you're saying why should cleaning become an issue?   Well, I'd take this as 'straight from the horse's mouth.'  Your own statement asserts that male circumcision promotes cleanliness.  This is precisely the reason why I fully support male circumcision.  The Quran empahsises on physical hygiene and male circumcision includes physical hygiene.   As simply correct as that.   I think that bit of your statement is sufficient to make me lose interest in this debate because it's enough evidence that your persistence in rejecting male circumcision dwells upon your own personal dislike of it (whatever that is) and you're trying to link it up with the Quran with totally unsupportive views of your own.  That's not good at all. I don't think so.

However, one of the reasons to the view you two are holding are the majority itself.

That's TOTAL HOGWASH from side.  Where have I said or even insinuated that I support it because of the "majority"?  Please quote me.  It just shows how little you've been reading of whatever I've so arduously stated so far including the previous thread which contains the bulk of the information I contributed.

It is such that it is so widespread and sometimes even medically 'recognised'.

First of all, male circumcision is medially recognized nowadays for its benefits in every part of the developed world not "sometimes."  It's optional because it's not a life saving procedure but a guide to good health.  Secondly, yes of course I support it because it's medically recognized and that's got nothing to do with faith.  Haven't I made this ample clear already by racking my brains a million times?  Medically recognized means just that.  As an educated person of the present era, I certainly support medically recognized facts.  What else do you expect me to recognize .. Bukhari's hadith of the black cumin medicine .. or the black magic medicine of some idolater of India?    If majority in the world accept medically recongized procedures, they do it because of the logical side of it, not on grounds of superstitions etc. like the primitive idolaters.  So, in that case it's a positive approach to follow the majority.  Just as the majority isn't always right, it isn't always wrong either especially on practical issues like these.  When we accept or reject the 'majority' or 'minority' that's not because of their labels, it's because of the substance they hold.  So let's be rational on that.  If the majority believes Hadith is as important as the Quran, that substance is wrong so we reject it.  But if majority says that modern medical findings are done carefully for our benefit, there the majority is right.  You are purposely dragging my view along a different path only to make it easy for you to fire back on the basis of your fabricated ideas.

Suppose circumcision never existed and you never heard of such a thing in your life. One day on the newspaper you read, a man cut his foreskin or a portion of it off in order that he does not have to clean himself. This would come as a shock to you and the world and would be on the TV news everywhere.

No it wouldn't come as a shock to me at all.  I don't know what makes you presume that.  With your anti-doctor / medical attitude, you might be shocked, not me.  Explore the field of medical research.  There are numerous new findings which I and those of my generation couldn't even conceive of in our school days but now many such findings are life saving devices or simply a guide to better health.  As a cultured person who reads and understands the Noble Quran with an unbiased mind, I'm thankful to Allah for such medical advancements and their findings in galore.  Every little bit of these findings contribute in extending the average human life span by at least 20 years compared to what it was a hunderd or more years ago. It would be our height of ingratitude towards Allah not to appreciate this.  On the contrary, you are trying to blemish it with archaic ideas.

Besides, it's a not a matter of 'majority' or 'minority.'  There's no minority here.  In regard to Muslim and non-Muslim community .. male circumcision and non-circumcision has the same number.  1.2 billion Muslims are circumcised, as against that the same number or more of hindus that are not circumcised for pagan religious reasons.  That's the bare truth.   Frankly I find your argument much closer to the hindu approach.


what you are really doing is damaging and injuring a perfectly fine flesh on the human-being...bandaging it...and then waiting for it to heal.  .. It is a large wound which was never meant to happen.

Sorry brother, but that really sounds too twisted and retrogressive going back to the Age of Ignorance .... a view too sub-standard to even warrant a reply.  I don't know how you can seriously mean this after yourself admitting that "circumcising takes out the need for cleaning."  
 
There's so much to read on this topic and its medical benefits in all modern medical journals and websites, but it's a pity that you brother insist on such rustic, almost comical arguments.  You're taking a single minor surgery and its dressing as a symbol of lifelong sin as though it will never heal to yield its benefits.   Your extreme views almost sound to me like some hidden superstition you garner.  Otherwise I can't figure out how anyone can come up with such strange notions.


Like I say, it is against the Qur'an. This makes circumcision an important topic and not just a 'personal matter' with the Qur'an passive on the matter.

That's only your view not mine, all of which I have already explained.   For that reason it's not important for me.  Like sister zeynab clarified, the Quran does not say 'yes' to this issue and neither does it say 'no.'  Therefore, it very definitely is a peronal matter, what else?  But you seem to take for granted that your interpretation of the Quran is the final one which can't be vetoed.   Instead of these sweeping generalizations and authoritarian rulings,  how about using the sentence "Allah knows best" at the end?


It goes without saying that I accept the approach mutually agreed between you and sis zeynab on agreeing to disagree.  I always did.  But brother, you are the one who staunchly disagrees to diagree.  Otherwise .... what was the point of starting this acrimonious topic a second time when you know full well that people here have deep differences with you over it?

Anyway, gotta rush.  It's really gettin late here.  

Walaikum salaam and lots a peace brother.  Debates at times do get touch, bu no hard feelings from my end as always Smiley
Report Spam   Logged

AceOfHearts
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 281




Badges: (View All)
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2009, 01:16:39 pm »

What do you meant brother?  You are a reader of the Quran and you're saying why should cleaning become an issue?   Well, I'd take this as 'straight from the horse's mouth.'  Your own statement asserts that male circumcision promotes cleanliness.

Yes, circumcision helps to clean - BUT it does mean one will be dirty not circumcised because all it takes just hygene practice.

As per modern medicine female circumcision is needless and medically unethical, while male circumcision carries various benefits (as stated in the link we discussed) and has no drawbacks, neither immediate nor long term. 

You are saying female circumcision is unethical - where you may have umbrellad all types of female circumcision. There are female circumcision procedures carried out with so-called "benefits" such as increasing woman's sexual experience i.e. removing clitoral hood. I would be interested to know what you have to say on that? If your answer is that is is ok so long as the women wants to, then my question to you is, is it ok for the parents to do it for her when she is a girl or a baby with that intention?

Also, I feel amazed how you say theres absolutely no benefit in not circumcising males "circumcising carries various benefits and HAS NO DRAWBACKS". At the very least, you could say there pros and cons to both - but rather the way you have always referred to this part of the body even in the old thread, as if though its just a useless piece of flesh there does frustrate me. This is because I cant figure out whether if it is to do with you not encountering any material to read that would explain to you this or if its you just intentionally cutting out the other side.  In addition to my other question, please tell me if you really mean what you say, and I will give you something to read. Have you not read anything on any of the "medically recognised" benefits of the foreskin? (i.e. reasons to why its there as opposed to not there).

Lastly, I have not taken anything against you at all. We are just debating in a civilised manner. Thanks.
Report Spam   Logged
Heba E. Husseyn
TEAM MUSLIM VILLA Villa Artisan
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4968



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2009, 04:32:40 pm »

What may "frustrate" you is the useless piece of flesh which it is.  What frustrates me is your persistence and intolerance, let alone not recognizing a professional truth that's been confirmed by people 100 times our dedication and brains in the matter.  

"Yes, circumcision helps to clean - BUT it does mean one will be dirty not circumcised because all it takes just hygene practice."

So how can you, of all persons, guarantee that everyone is capable of practicing meticulous hygiene each day of their lives?  We all know in the civilized world that prevention is better than cure.  What better prevention can there be than removing the constant source leading to the symptoms and then requiring the cure?  But Oh! I forgot, I'm talking to someone who believes in the unrealism of perfection of the destructible human body .. an archaic fantastical idea borrowed from the Days of Ignorance and then is trying to hook it up with the Glorious Quraan for self-satisfaction.  What a shame brother!

"You are saying female circumcision is unethical - where you may have umbrellad all types of female circumcision. There are female circumcision procedures carried out with so-called "benefits" such as increasing woman's sexual experience i.e. removing clitoral hood. I would be interested to know what you have to say on that? If your answer is that is is ok so long as the women wants to, then my question to you is, is it ok for the parents to do it for her when she is a girl or a baby with that intention?"

Female circumcision is useless because it doesn't help in better hygiene.  How do I know it?  Because it's been proven medically with all relevant  research.  The only reason they do it in societies where it's done is because of another misguided idea, that is, they presume female circumcision leads to better sexual pleasure as you've yourself noted.  Do you disagree with that?  Yes i'm sure you do.  And so do I.  That's the second reason I think female circumcision is useless.  So simple as that.  Yet, your anger on disagreements couldn't even close this chapter.  

Here let me add - in pagan societies where male circumcision is rejected, one of the major reasons other than their neurotic idea of self-perfection is also increase of male virility.  They think that a non-circumcised male can make a 'better or more macho man.'  So, I actually have two reasons for throwing away the rejection of male circumcision along with the acceptance of female circumcision.  First male circumcision promotes hygiene (which you yourself admitted despite your constant 'hujaat') and female circumcision has no bearing on hygiene.  Both rejection of male and adherence of female circumcisions carry the false and despicable notion of greater sexual pleasure.

"Also, I feel amazed how you say theres absolutely no benefit in not circumcising males "circumcising carries various benefits and HAS NO DRAWBACKS". "

Yes absolutely.  Can you state the drawbacks from the medical view point apart from the usual abstract stereotypes of 'violation of the rights of the body' and all that insignificant humbug which has NO connections with practical life?  So far there's not been a single case in the world where a child after becoming an adult has sued his parents on grounds that 'his parents circumcisied him when he was young because of which he is facing the drawbacks of circumcision.'   Pleaes don't waste my time talking like runaway lunatic from a madhouse with a super-conditioned mind brother.

You keep mentioning a million times about 'agreeing to disagree' and yet keep coming back, forcefully repeating the same hackneyed yap yap which I reject with a kick.  So what's your goal?  You wanna convert everyone into paganism despite this topic being a practical and secular one?   Thank you very much.  I'm least interested in your preachings which I see as honestly ugly and related to ancient polytheist readings.

I've tried time and again to end this with a positive note, but you brother, you're now gettin on my nerves.  Your stubborn persistence has surely mocked the phrase 'agree to disagree.'

Either accept that phrase and respect the choice of others instead of shoving your dirt down their throats .... or sister zeynab simply allow let me delete my a/c because I really don't like such needless fights because it ruins a good atmosphere.
Report Spam   Logged

N. Truth Seeker
Quiet guy technology nerd | TEAM MUSLIM VILLA
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4343



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2009, 09:22:32 pm »

OMG! this thread is has gotten heated up.  No, no br. ace, u have got a very wrong idea of male circumcision.  I hav studied it extensively, both medically and the Qur'anic view.  Qur'an is neutral on this issue.  That's confirmed.  Medically it's not at all the kind of stuff u have made it br.  Non-circumcision of males is the oldest prevailing culture of Hindus and Siks with similar arguments u have put. We Muslims don't think like that.  And sister cat, pls don't get upset sister.  Why should anyone allow u to delete yr a/c?  Yr contributions are so much and so precious on this small forum.  Two days ago I checked this thread and the previous one. Yr answers and careful analysis r brilliant and worth saving. I coulddn't agree more.  but brother's mind is very pre-conditioned so he's thinkin on a very different line.  Anyhow, br. ace's opinion is his responsibility but he's going on a very wrong track on this agenda.  It's best to end this  discussion b'coz apart from him no one else is happy with this sort of talk.

Assalam Alaikum and peace.
Report Spam   Logged

Zainab_M
TEAM MV Founder
Admin
Hero Member
*
Posts: 6318



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2009, 01:25:56 am »

Sorry for coming by so late.  Was just so busy since the last two days. 

Brother persian is right.  It's best to finish this discussion right here as I had already suggested much earlier.  First, circumcision is not a Quraanic issue.  It's a purely medical topic and should be discussed at the Coffee Table, if at all necessary.  Second, brother Ace's views are acquired from non-Islamic roots viz. hinduism and sikism and cannot be entertained in a very Muslim forum like ours. 

Sister Cat, my profound apology for this unpleasantness. 

Salaam Alaikum and peace.
Report Spam   Logged

Zainab_M
TEAM MV Founder
Admin
Hero Member
*
Posts: 6318



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2012, 07:58:10 pm »

The latest on this topic:

The fact that male circumcision is beneficial from the view point of health & hygiene has yet again been endorsed by health experts in the United States with a big thumbs up.

Though circumcision is not directly mentioned in the Noble Quran, the Quran does highlight the importance of hygiene.  Thus, we must be perceptive enough to include every aspect of physical cleanliness within the boundaries of hygiene.  

The Noble Quran does not endorse female circumcision at all which does not relate to hygiene in any way.  So, we do not need to discuss that.

Concerning male circumcision, Quranic principles can definitely be perceived as compatible with the promotion of hygiene, and subsequently with the promotion of good health, through the process of male circumcision.  

The benefits of male circumcision that clearly outweigh its small risks have finally and officially been confirmed, accepted and endorsed by all recognized personalities in the medical field.   The article is posted below dated August 27, 2012.  Must be read carefully by the blind critics of male circumcision who argue without doing their homework.

Senior health experts officially released this information on August 2012 to overrule the thoughtless objections that were piling up to ban male circumcision particularly in Germany and certain other parts of Europe.  Hence, now, the truthful information from the medical perspective is right before the people.  The decision to undergo circumcision is up to them.  If they refuse it, they put themselves or their male babies at much higher risk of infections later in life.  

Circumcision benefits outweigh risks and insurers should pay; pediatricians revise stance

CHICAGO - The nation's most influential pediatricians group says the health benefits of circumcision in newborn boys outweigh any risks and insurance companies should pay for it.

In its latest policy statement on circumcision, a procedure that has been declining nationwide, the American Academy of Pediatrics moves closer to an endorsement but says the decision should be up to parents.

"It's not a verdict from on high," said policy co-author Dr. Andrew Freedman. "There's not a one-size-fits-all-answer." But from a medical standpoint, circumcision's benefits in reducing risk of disease outweigh its small risks, said Freedman, a pediatric urologist in Los Angeles.

Recent research bolstering evidence that circumcision reduces chances of infection with HIV and other sexually spread diseases, urinary tract infections and cancer of the male genital influenced the academy to update their 13-year-old policy.

Their old stance said potential medical benefits were not sufficient to warrant recommending routinely circumcising newborn boys. The new one says, "The benefits of newborn male circumcision justify access to this procedure for those families who choose it." The academy also says pain relief stronger than a sugar-coated pacifier is essential, usually an injection to numb the area.

The federal Centers for Disease Control and Convention has estimated circumcision costs range from about $200 to $600 nationwide. Coverage varies among insurers and several states have stopped Medicaid funding for circumcisions.

The new policy was published online Monday in Pediatrics. It comes amid ongoing debate over whether circumcision is medically necessary or a cosmetic procedure that critics say amounts to genital mutilation. Activists favouring a circumcision ban made headway in putting it to a vote last year in San Francisco but a judge later knocked the measure off the city ballot, ruling that regulating medical procedures is up to the state, not city officials.

In Germany, Jewish and Muslim leaders have protested a regional court ruling in June that said circumcision amounts to bodily harm.

Meantime, a recent study projected that declining U.S. circumcision rates could add more than $4 billion in health care costs in coming years because of increased illness and infections.

Circumcision involves removing foreskin at the tip of the *****. The procedure can reduce germs that can grow underneath the foreskin, and complications, including bleeding and infection, are rare, the academy says.

Despite the U.S. decline, about half of baby boys nationwide still undergo circumcision, or roughly 1 million each year. The country's overall rate is much higher than in other developed nations, but U.S. rates vary by region and are higher in areas where it is a cultural or religious tradition, including among Jews and Muslims.

Psychologist Ronald Goldman, director of an anti-circumcision group, the Circumcision Resource Center, said studies show circumcision causes loss of sexual satisfaction — a claim the academy said is not supported by the research it reviewed — and can be psychologically harming. Goldman contends medical studies showing benefits are flawed and that the academy's new position is "out of step" with medical groups in other developed countries.

The American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists took part in the research review that led to the new policy and has endorsed it. Circumcisions in hospitals are typically performed by obstetricians or pediatricians.

The CDC also participated in the review, and will consider the academy's updated policy in preparing its own recommendations, a CDC spokesman said. The agency has a fact sheet summarizing circumcision's potential health benefits and risks but no formal guidelines.

The American Medical Association and American Academy of Family Physicians have neutral policies similar to the pediatrics academy's previous position.

Philadelphia social worker Shannon Coyne examined medical research on circumcision before her son was born last September and had a tough time making a decision. She learned that a relative's boy needed reconstructive surgery after a botched circumcision, and that another's son who wasn't circumcised developed urinary infections.

Coyne said she and her husband ultimately decided against circumcision, because she didn't want her baby to have what she considers cosmetic surgery without being able to consent.

Her advice to other parents is "just make an informed decision. Do your research, be open-minded."

Some 18 states have eliminated Medicaid coverage for circumcision, a trend that could contribute to rising health care costs to treat infections if circumcision rates continue to decline, according to a study published Aug. 20 in Archives of Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine.

Dr. Aaron Tobian, a Johns Hopkins University assistant professor who co-authored the study, said the academy's updated policy "is a very good step."

Source:
Yahoo News - Canadian Press
Report Spam   Logged

Heba E. Husseyn
TEAM MUSLIM VILLA Villa Artisan
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4968



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2012, 08:36:17 pm »

That's a remarkable read.  It proves everything in exactly the same lines as we have kept repeating to the blind critics who speak only to cater to their personal views.

Thank you sister Zeynab.
Report Spam   Logged


Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Send this topic  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal
Scammers & spammers will be reported | © If you borrow MV contents you must mention our link with hypertext | MV Team is not responsible for comments by members or guests.
Bookmark this site! | Upgrade This Forum
SMF For Free - Create your own Forum


Powered by SMF | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines
Privacy Policy