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Focus of questioning the unwise narrations


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Zeynab
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« on: January 08, 2007, 09:39:28 pm »

 BismEm
 salamem


The prime argument is not to elucidate that "Hadeeth being the words of the Prophet" come after the Quraan.  Surely every Muslim knows that.   It's taken for granted.  In fact, if the beloved Prophet (pbuh) learnt of the Hadeeth adherents lying about him and casting doubts on the Glorious Quraan as a strategy for defending modern-day Hadeeth, he (pbuh) would have been flabbergasted and furious, to say the least. 

The argument to question the Hadeeth is the fact that the very contents of a vast majority of them simply prove that they weren't said by the Prophet (pbuh).  There are many Hadeeth narrations that are truly embarrassing and offensive.  Needless to say, such narrations are completely contrary to the Prophet's great character. 

Thus, the purpose of overlooking Hadeeth is to defend the true and ememplary personality of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) from being tarnished by apparently inappropriate Hadeeth narrations.
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« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2007, 06:42:22 pm »


Assalamu alaikum sister Zainab,

I agree with the point you make that, denial of Hadith is not a denial of the Prophet's good charecter. Rather we believe he was of a noble charecter as the Glorious Qur'an states.

On the following point:


Thus, the purpose of overlooking Hadeeth is to defend the true and ememplary personality of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) from being tarnished by apparently inappropriate Hadeeth narrations.[/font]

You probably did not mean that the most primary purpose of it is the above. I say that the first and fundamental reason why Hadith cannot be accepted as a form of religious guidance is because the Qur'an does not authorise it. The Qur'an authorises only itself as a Guide.


peace Smiley
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« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2007, 07:15:43 pm »


Assalamu alaikum sister Zainab,

On the following point:


Thus, the purpose of overlooking Hadeeth is to defend the true and ememplary personality of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) from being tarnished by apparently inappropriate Hadeeth narrations.[/font]

You probably did not mean that the most primary purpose of it is the above. I say that the first and fundamental reason why Hadith cannot be accepted as a form of religious guidance is because the Qur'an does not authorise it. The Qur'an authorises only itself as a Guide.


peace Smiley


Wa'salaam dear brother.  Yes, very true.  The primary reason for not accepting Hadith as a source of guidance is because the Noble Quraan is the only Divine and original Guide for humanity prepared by the Almighty Allah.  This is goes without saying.  The reason why I mentioned the other point about hadith tarnishing the Prophet's image is because the sunni and shiia imams use the name of the Prophet as leverage to propagate their views thru hadith.  This has been going on for centuries.  And now, what has happened is that much of the non-Muslim community recognizes these changes as the face of Islam.  99% of their criticizm of Islam sprouts from hadith.  Even if they try to misinterpret a verse directly from the Quraan, it's always supported by the hadith.  In hadith (and nowadays fatwas too, the ideas of which evolve out of hadiths) there are plenty of violations that give non-Muslim critics food for thought.  Similarly, these xenophobe critics pick out the lies written in the hadith that the imams have attributed to the Prophet and use them at random to attack not just the Prophet, but the Quraan and Islam at large.  You will always find that majority of non-Muslim critics are not concerned with the Quraan.  They do not even know about any of the contents of the Quraan. For them, Islam simply means (1) manipulations by the media and (2) what they hear from the fatwas of imams along with the practices that take place accordingly by their naive followers. 

What I actually had in mind when I wrote this was the distortion of the international image of Islam by falsehood thru hadith for which both the Muslims and non-Muslims are responsible.  Secondly, I also had in mind the intentional accusations of hadith adhering Muslims (in a bid to continue the hadith culture), when they try to assert that any critisizm of hadith means critisizm of the Prophet .. a totally wrong statement (rather the opposite of the truth) that creates a huge misunderstanding of my writings and drives away the new Quraan aloners who are still learning the manipulations of hadith.
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« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2008, 09:28:16 am »

Salaamun alaikum,

This may be a late reply to this thread but I thought it might help:

To me, why I cannot accept hadith unless the hadith proposes a meaning which agrees with Al-Quran (AQ) itself is because AQ is an information system which is conscious of itself, that is talks about itself and tells us how to read it. One of the things it tells us is that its a 'tafseel kulli shaiyin' (detailing of every 'thing') and that anything not mentioned in it shouldnt asked about for our own good (5/101-102). So to God, whatever's a 'thing' (insofar as a 'thing' is something vital or essential) has been mentioned and anything extraneous to that will simply harm the understanding of the message.

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« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2008, 09:55:13 pm »

Salaamun alaikum,

To me, why I cannot accept hadith unless the hadith proposes a meaning which agrees with Al-Quran (AQ) itself is because AQ is an information system which is conscious of itself, that is talks about itself and tells us how to read it. One of the things it tells us is that its a 'tafseel kulli shaiyin' (detailing of every 'thing') and that anything not mentioned in it shouldnt asked about for our own good (5/101-102). So to God, whatever's a 'thing' (insofar as a 'thing' is something vital or essential) has been mentioned and anything extraneous to that will simply harm the understanding of the message.

F.
 

Walaikum Salaam, farouk ..

I agree with you 110%   

Actually, as you must have read in this thread, in my opinion the impropriety of the Hadith culture consists of a bunch of reasons.  When I picked these reasons, I constantly had the values of the Quraan in mind and it was on the basis of these values that I made my assessment.

First, if Hadith proposes a meaning that's compatible with the Quraan, I would certainly accept it as correct.  However, the fact still remains that Hadith is not Divine.  The fact also remains that the Hadith narrations began popping up almost 200 years after the passing away of the Prophet Muhammad (on whom be peace and blessings).  Therefore, even a proper sounding Hadith though acceptable, it's impossible for us to confirm that the Prophet said it in that many words.  We can simply accept a good Hadith as wise sayings.  After all, good words are worth reading and retaining no matter who says them.  But even those Hadiths that agree with the Quraan should not be made a source of ethical commandments neither should they officially be attributed to the Prophet because we are not sure of their authentic source.  And as for the source of commandments and advise, we have the Noble Quraan as a complete framework of information and as well as general guidelines.

As for those ahadith that are not compatible with the Quraan (and indeed many fall into that category), must be trashed without hesitation.  Many of these improper hadiths contridict the commandments of the Quraan and carry slander, gossip and insulting personal information about the Prophet.  Apart from the major drawback that these hadiths are false and defamatory, they carry slander and gossip, all of which are strongly forbidden in the Quraan.  It becomes still more repugnant when such slanders are directed toward a chosen Messenger of God about whom God clearly states in the Quraan the importance of being respectful and loving.  The Quraanic dictate of showing good etiquettes and love toward the Prophet Muhammad and all previous Prophets without making any distinctions between them is not simply a commandment for the contemporaries of the respective Prophets as wrongly suggested by many modernists.  It's meant for everyone at all times.  Of course it's true that at present we cannot follow the conduct of any of the Prophets through their practical demonstrations because all of them have passed away.  But respecting them is just as possible and proper for us now as it was for their contemporaries.  Besides, this aspect enhances the importance of the Noble Quraan still more.  In the absense of learning the Message of Allah directly through His Messengers, we must now learn it directly from the Noble Quraan and interpret it to the best of our rational minds.   Differences of opinion through interpretations will still occur.  But that has to be handled with tolerance, understanding and consideration which highlights the freedom of thoughts entrusted to humans by the Glorious Quraan when Allah states "Each one doth according to his rule of conduct and thy Lord is best aware of him who's way is right."
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« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2008, 12:22:02 pm »


I think accepting hadith as 'wise sayings' (thoughly mostly unwise, if you ask me) is a healthy attitude to take indeed. We need to focus our study on the Quran anyway. After all, speaking for myself, there's just too much of the Quran I don't know yet.
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« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2008, 05:37:20 pm »


I think accepting hadith as 'wise sayings' (thoughly mostly unwise, if you ask me) is a healthy attitude to take indeed.

hmmmm .. only the decent sounding hadiths can be retained as 'wise sayings' if desired by some people.  Frankly for me, the only Quraan is more than sufficient.  Alhamdulilah.

(thoughly mostly unwise, if you ask me)

I would certainly be the first one to agree with you on this Smiley  For every single decent hadith there are at least 15 bad ones.  This diminishes the importance of the decent ones as well because it's very cumbersome rummaging through lines and lines of illogical narrations only to search for a few rational ones. 

Moreover, the majority of the false ones have also shaken the credibility of the few better ones as we cannot be sure of their authenticity either.  After all, the entire hadith literature is written by the same set of hadith writers who's selfish motives have far surpassed their principles.     



We need to focus our study on the Quran anyway. After all, speaking for myself, there's just too much of the Quran I don't know yet.

That's exactly what I meant, brother Farouk.  The only Book of guidance and commandments is the Noble Quraan.  And yes, almost every word and expression of the Quraan has so much depth that though I've been reading it everyday since the past 12 years of my life, I still feel I have so much to learn of this beautiful Book. 
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« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2013, 01:42:57 am »

Assalamo Alaikum
Dear Sister Zainab
I have been searching the internet to locate English translation of a chapter from Bukhari but could not find and I am pasting here the Arabic text of that chapter and I will try to translate whatever would be possible and I would request you get its proper translation since Arabic is not my mother tongue but I am able to understand 80%  of it which is again a drawback for any Muslim who wants to follow Qur’an and get firsthand knowledge of Qur’an and Hadith.I am so surprised ,saddened and angered to read such narrations  about our beloved Prophet (SAW) and how cunningly Bukhari articulated the title of this chapter. Here is the Arabic text followed by my own translation which might not be exactly what Bukahri narrated:
This chapter has been taken from the following internet link.
http://islam2all.com/hadeeth/alboukhari/index.php?saheh=39


 110 - باب: هل يسافر بالجارية قبل أن يستبرئها
ولم ير الحسن بأسا أن يقبلها أو يباشرها.
وقال ابن عمر رضي الله عنهما: إذا وهبت الوليدة التي توطأ، أو بيعت، أو عتقت فليستبرأ رحمها بحيضة، ولا تستبرأ العذراء.
وقال عطاء: لا بأس أن يصيب من جاريته الحامل ما دون الفرج، وقال الله تعالى: {إلا على أزواجهم أو ما ملكت أيمانهم}. /: المؤمنون: 6/.
2120 - حدثنا عبد الغفار بن داود: حدثنا يعقوب بن عبد الرحمن، عن عمرو بن أبي عمرو، عن أنس بن مالك رضي الله عنه قال:
 قدم النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم خيبر، فلما فتح الله عليه الحصن، ذكر له جمال صفية بنت حيي بن أخطب، وقد قتل زوجها وكانت عروسا فاصطفاها رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم لنفسه، فخرج بها حتى بلغنا سد الروحاء حلت، فبنى بها، ثم صنع حيسا في نطع صغير، ثم قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: (آذن من حولك). فكانت تلك وليمة رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم على صفية. ثم خرجنا إلى المدينة، قال: فرأيت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يحوي لها وراءه بعباءة، ثم يجلس عند بعيره فيضع ركبته، فتضع صفية رجلها على ركبته حتى تركب.
[ 364]
Translation:
110-Can one travel with a slave girl when she is menstruating?
Hassan  did not see any problem in kissing her or having intercourse.
Ibn Umar said  in case of such a slave girl with whom bed is shared, when she is given as a gift, or sold or set free, her pregnancy ought to be checked by her menses(if she is pregnant or not)  and for virgins this test is not a condition. And Atta said if a slave girl is pregnant, there is no harm in benefiting from any other part other than vulva. (   ما دون الفرج    this also means below the vulva (
This is the translation and then Bukhari adds from Qur’an: 23-6 (Except from their wives or those their right hands possess).
It is known fact that Bukhari’s fiqh (Thoughts and Ideology) is in his titels.Bukhari proves by relating Hassan that  one can have intercourse with menstruating woman and by relating Ata that same woman can be used apart from vulva.And after relating this  immediately Bukhari narrates under it the following.
Translation of 2120:
Told us Abdul Ghaffar son of Daood: Yaqoob ibn Abd al-Rahman, Amr ibn Abu Amr, Anas bin Malik, may Allah be pleased with him said
Translated by: Muhammad Muhsin Khan
English (translation) ref: Vol.:3, Book:34 Number:437
From; http://al-islamic.net/hadith/bukhari/34
The Prophet came to Khaibar and when Allah made him victorious and he conquered the town by breaking the enemy's defense, the beauty of Safiya bint Huyai bin Akhtab was mentioned to him and her husband had been killed while she was a bride. Allah's Apostle selected her for himself and he set out in her company till he reached Sadd-ar-Rawha' where her menses were over and he married her. Then Hais (a kind of meal) was prepared and served on a small leather sheet (used for serving meals). Allah's Apostle then said to me, "Inform those who are around you (about the wedding banquet)." So that was the marriage banquet given by Allah's Apostle for (his marriage with) Safiya. After that we proceeded to Medina and I saw that Allah's Apostle was covering her with a cloak while she was behind him. Then he would sit beside his camel and let Safiya put her feet on his knees to ride (the camel).
Now Bukhari’s intention is quite clear narrating the story of Prophet of Islam just after narrating pornographic statement. He has very cleverly used the word TRAVEL instead of INTERCOURSE.He wants to prove that the Prophet of Islam was a woman snatcher (Nauzubillah) and forcefully marrying women.
This much for now and will be posting more INSHAALLAH.
My question is (Is there any contemporary of Bukhari who were against his book?)
Kindly give references so that my faith on Qur’an may strengthen.
Stay blessed
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« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2013, 10:52:33 am »

Walaikum Salaam.  Thank you for putting this up brother Asif Reza. I'll try to find the translation though it's not worth it. We all know very well that 90% of the stuff written or compiled by Bukhari & co. is evil, corrupt and depraved.

Yes brother, I had earlier read those ahadith on Safiya and the kissing of slave girl ... these are very cunning and vulgar LIES by Bukhari and other compilers, and those indecent men who narrated them. So horrible that they cannot even be read before women and children. The Hadith lovers call them "hadith," but in reality these are porn .... porn constructed on pure LIES. The introduction of such deceit and counterfeit are unacceptable and unspeakable .... not to mention of the grief they cause within the hearts of true believers. But now I know that the men who wrote and compiled these highly shameful works were not Muslims at heart and they had a hidden agenda. They were the enemies of Allah and the friends of Satan. They only succeeded to attract the attention of those who gave ear to them and thus fell into Satan's trap. They will never be able to lure us. We should not expect anything decent from them. Decent work comes from decent people. Indecent people cannot and will never produce decent work. These men wanted to erase the original Message of Islam (the Noble Quran) in favor of the man-written practices of the days of jahilya. This cunning institution of Hadith has spread all over the Ummah like a festering, stinking root of a rotting tree. It might not be possible for the small number of believers left in this world to cut off this evil root and neither is it our responsibility to do that. We are answerable to Allah only for our own deeds, not theirs. Therefore, it's of utmost importance for us to stay away from their misguidance and NEVER become a party to it. May Allah be Witness to that.

I have read Bukhari and Muslim from cover to cover ...... and the vulgarities & transgression they contain is enough to leave any true believer's head spinning like a top. It's also enough to tell that these people belonged to a very low stock. I'm sure in his lifetime the beloved Prophet (sw) would never even consider to spend a single minute in their company. The Prophet (sw) will InshAllah, himself be a witness against these dissemblers on the Day of Judgment. All we need to do is to wait a little with patience. All of these hadith narrators and compilers - BIG LIARS - have now died. Their followers are still making merry by preserving their filth, and still calling themselves "Muslims." They will all come to know the truth on the Day of Judgment. Let's see whether Bukhari or Anas or Huraira or any one of those fabricators, cheaters, falsifiers and distorters will come forward and defend their hadith followers on the Day of Accountability. They will be numb with fear of their own guilt.
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« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2013, 10:54:43 am »

You asked if there were any contemporaries of Bukhari against his book. As far as the medieval clerical circle was concerned, I don't know of anyone against him because they were all similar to him in attitude. Muslim bin Hajaj was Bukhari's student. Tirmidhi and Nasai followed the same trend. Tabari, the Zoroastrian convert, was anther big liar who intentionally misinterpreted Surah An-Najm by falsely claiming that the revelation of this Surah was disrupted by Satan. BIG LIE! May Allah punish this man, Tabari. And it was because of this lie spoken by Tabari that hundreds of years later, the crook, Salman Rushdie, cashed on Tabari's falsehood and wrote that revolting & sickening book titled "Satanic Verses."

I'm sure there must have been many common people living during the same period as Bukhari and his successors who didn't agree with the culture of Hadith. But it was not possible for them to stand up against these pharisees publicly. They would have to remain silent about their disagreement. The reason being, the culture of Hadith was supported by the Muslim monarchies that came to power after the passing away of the Prophet (sw) and the four righteous Caliphs. The two monarchies responsible for starting the Hadith culture were the Ommayads and the Abbasids. Ommayad rule was the era of goading the Hadith narrators, and Hadith officially became a part of Islam during the reign of Ommayad ruler Umer bin Abdul Aziz. The Ommayad rule was short, less than 100 years. Then came the Abbasids who ruled for over 500 years. This was the era of Hadith compilation. It was during this period when all those Persian imams, selfish cheats, came to the Arab world and the Abbasid rulers treated them like guests and facilitated the work of compilation for them. It is also widely known that during compilation, these Persian imams edited many narrations. Some narrations are said to be edited more than half a dozen times. Therefore, in some hadiths it's the narrator who is responsible for the lies while in other hadiths it's the compiler who is responsible for the offensive contents by double-crossing the narrator.

It's important to remember that misguidance always attracts the majority much more readily than guidance. Allah has already clarified this aspect in the Quran, quote: "If you obeyed most of those on earth they would mislead you far from Allah's way." (6:116). Therefore, the support of the majority for any ideology is NO proof of its correctness. Majority maybe a show of greater worldly strength because of its large numbers but it does NOT guarantee righteousness. What is right or wrong is something we need to decide through our own perception by utilizing the Noble Quran as our Sole Criterion. A very simple example for this would be the status of the Christians at present. The Christians have also deviated completely, even more than the mainstream Hadith following Muslims. The Christians too are divided into various denominations or sects. They are no longer Monotheists (followers of Tawheed) because they refer to Essa as "son of God" (nauzbillah). The is the pathetic condition of majority of the Christians .. 98%. There are about 2% who still follow the original Message of Allah as revealed to Essa, son of Virgin Maryam. This 2% still adheres to the concept of Tawheed and they don't agree with the altered versions of the Bibles because they know it's been completely changed and does not comprise of the words of Allah any longer. Therefore, this 2% is still rightly guided. But their number is so small that the world hardly knows about them. But again, the fact remains that as far as guidance is concerned, it's this small minority of 2% that is right guided in the Sight of Allah. The majority of 98% is WRONG.

Therefore brother Asif, do not get disheartened by reading the bad things written by lunatics like Bukhari etc. He and his successors have borrowed many of these transgressions from the altered Chistian and Jewish Scriptures. If you read those altered versions of Old & New Testaments, it's even worse than the Hadith books. The secret mission of these people was to distort the truth. By the grace of Allah, a few of us have been able to catch their guile. Unfortunately the majority have been caught in Bukhari's trap. But let's not worry about them. They will have to answer for themselves. We are not responsible for them.

Last evening I was reading Surah Al-Hijr in which Allah states: "It may be that those who disbelieve wish ardently that they were Muslims." (15:2). This is very true. The term "Muslim" means those who have submitted only to Allah with no other distractions such as following the imams or hadiths or fatwas etc. Those who are misguided, are subconsciously guilty of their own violations and therefore they always harbor an element of envy toward true believers. For that reason, you will find the hadith followers keep coming to Quran alone sites including our forum & blog, only to taunt, fight and insult personally. They go on and on with their badgering. This behavior is basically the result of their own guilt buried within the subconscious of their minds. They have an inkling that there is something wrong with what they are holding on to. But they do not have the insight nor the dedication nor the courage to reflect and correct themselves by turning to Allah and giving up the annexations they are following. We have no problem being calm and waiting for the Hereafter. But they cannot keep themselves calm. They are always disturbed, jumpy and agitated.
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« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2013, 10:59:57 am »

Brother Abbotonian (Asif Reza), I would like to request you to please introduce yourself in our Introduction for new members board which is HERE, briefly mentioning your ideology and purpose of joining Muslim Villa, so that the other members of our MV team also know you and can respond to your posts.  Thank you brother.

Just to let everyone know, brother Asif Reza is also a Quran alone follower who is a keen visitor of my blog. 
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« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2013, 09:59:45 am »

Thanks you Sis Zainab,
I am unable to introduce myself,whenever I click the HERE button nothing appears where I may introduce myself.
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« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2013, 10:08:50 am »

Salam brother.  If u click on that hyper text, it connects with the intro page of our forum.  I just checked it.  It's working.  When u go there, just click on 'new topic' button and put up your introduction post. 
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Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow.  Don't walk behind me, I may not lead.  Just walk beside me and be a friend.
abbottonian
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« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2013, 10:58:05 am »

Thank you Admin and Sis Heba. Finally I was able to introduce myself today.
May Allah bless all those who seek guidance through the Holy Qur'aan and guide those people towards it who seek guidance through man made books.
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Asif Raza:- No tool is more beneficial than knowledge and no weapon is more dangerous than ignorance.

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