What would you do differently in running a 'Qur'an Only' Mosque?

[AceOfHearts]

  / Peace be to you all,

What would you do differently in running a 'Qur'an Only' Mosque?

I will start off the list...

1) Equally accessible and equally sized prayer area for believing women.
2) Believing women's prayer area integrated with believing men's prayer area and not miles away hidden somewhere.

..........

all ideas appreciated, big or small.

[Heba E. Husseyn]

   AceOH


as many might agree with me, the term "Quran only" seems to arouse misunderstandings among certain people.  i don't mean u .. but with many it does.  in view of that, i wud prefer elaborating that term into 'Quran only and original Prophetic teachings.'  and this  elaborated term is already linked to your question in a very amicable way.  neither the Quran nor the Prophet (pbuh) ever said to separate women from the prayer area into another far away room.  this does happen but it's an innovation.  however, again, it does not happen in every masjid.  i wonder if u heard dr. tarik swaidan talking about it.  he said this custom has nothing to do with authentic sunnah.  in fact, to the best of my knowledge, even the ahadith does not mention about separating women into another room.  as dr. swaidan stated, the Quran only lays a similar rule about the wives of the Prophet, not all believing women (check Verse 33:58), where the wives of the Prophet are told to talk to non-mehram males from behind a curtain.  the rules for all members of the Ahlul Bayt were stricter than the commoners becoz they were the role models for all peoples (e.g. Verses 33:30 and 33:32). 

the only thing one has to follow, and rest assure, women are the ones who support it most, is that the jam'ah of men and women within the same room has to be in different groups, the section consisting of men to be in front and women behind.  Or some masjids also have the 2 sections side by side separated by a gap of a few feet.  this however is necessary.  if men were to mingle in the same group with women for salaah, and considering the physical nature of salaah, it could create many violations especially by men in conservative countries.  knowing the mentality of many men in conservative societies, they would certainly use this opportunity in an improper manner.  not to mention, by far the majority of muslim women would hate to attend a jam'ah where men and women are all standing together and praying side by side.  majority of them would not go to a mosque with such a system.

in any case, to be very honest, i wouldn't underscore such issues as bringing out the differences between "Quran only" mosque and other mosques.  there is already enough differences between Muslims all over the world.  all the time being focused on differences won't get us anywhere, as we've already seen every too often.  we need to be focused on unity.  as the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had said to his (pbuh) followers to ignore the irrelevant matters that separate them, instead concentrate on the more significant issues that unite them.  Alhamdulilah.  united we rise, divided we fall!
 

peace to u and all.

[Zainab_M]

  AceOHearts  .. peace

I think cat has covered all almost aspects in this regard.   Frankly, having sects and groups in the Muslim faith is unpleasant enough.  Muslims should be 'just Muslims.'  I sincerely pray and hope we don't ever come to that point when the ideology of a mosque for every sect becomes different from the other.  Masjids don't have the same concepts as churches.  One might find every church donned differently with arts, pictures and carvings according to the concepts and approach of orthodox or modern-day Christianity.  Needless to say, there are no such differences of concepts in Masjids.  Muslims come to the masjid only to pray to Allah, the one and only.  And on the basis of that, they need to have the same basic beliefs i.e. involving the 5 pillars of Islam.  That's all.  This factor about sisters being put in a different hall away from the main congregation is practiced in various mosques, but that's entirely the idea of the imam of that mosque.  Though I personally think it's a completely needless idea, at the same time, it's not worth making into a very big issue that might result in bitter relationships between various individuals of that mosque.  And this brings the concept of 'sabr' or patience along with a rational approach toward our priorities   Some Muslims, particularly those living in the West, really get infuriated about this segregation of sisters and brothers.  Perhaps, they compare the mosque culture with those in churches and synagogues.  Again, I personally think, such dissatisfactions will be greatly quelled if we start recognizing ourselves as a separate cultural entity in the community, just as others do, instead of making the strategy of assimilation as the first priority.   

[Ruhi_Rose]

 

  if men were to mingle in the same group with women for salaah, and considering the physical nature of salaah, it could create many violations especially by men in conservative countries.  knowing the mentality of many men in conservative societies, they would certainly use this opportunity in an improper manner.  not to mention, by far the majority of muslim women would hate to attend a jam'ah where men and women are all standing together and praying side by side.  majority of them would not go to a mosque with such a system.

   yes i hear u cat.  i've heard lots of stories about cheap guys pinching and poking in crowded places in many developing parts of the world.  if in such communities women were to offer salaah in masjids cramped up in between men, that would be an ordeal.  in masjids in western societies it would perhaps be different and better.  but still not at all a good idea.

zeynab has also raised some very valid points.

thanks for the question brother.

[Zainab_M]

Would like to add a little more ..

Those brothers and sisters who disagree with this innovative practice of sisters being put into another room, should make themselves heard by all means.  They should raise this issue in community gatherings with their fellow Muslims of that mosque, and try to gather support in whatever way they can.  However, the problem here is, even those who agree, are usually negative about speaking up.  Thus, gathering support might not be that easy.

However, the reason why I mentioned about having a moderate approach is becoz of an unpleasant incident that happened with someone I know personally.

A revert brother living in the US didn't like this practice at his mosque which was run by an Arabic speaking imam, and where sisters were being pushed away into a corner room, like being bundled up into a 'ghetto.'  While I'm certain many people of that mosque supported him, but the ones who came forward were just a handful.   As expected, the imam of the mosque ignored his repeated requests not to separate the sisters.  The brother got so disgruntled that he stopped going to the mosque for salaah, because of which he became completely out to touch with all his Muslim friends.  Unfortunately this was a very small town with a very small Muslim population, and this was the only mosque situated there.  He gradually became so bitter that he started turning against Islam.  He's now quit totally and gone back to 'square one.'  Thus, regarding this episode, while I agree with this brother's stance of speaking up for a good cause, he certainly should not have stretched this matter to the extent of quitting to attend the masjid .. because of which he gradually lost his grip on Faith altogether.  This aspect about sisters being separated in the mosque is basically a social issue.   Though it's very commendable to stand up against this practice, one needs to be balanced and rational enough not to allow such issues to impact one's Faith.   

This is just my opinion.

Walaikum salaam and peace ..

[ameen]

as-salamu'alaikum,

The issue of men unjustifiably denying women access to the mosques, and of men selfishly hoarding the places of worship for themselves, is actually of much more importance than people are making it out to be in this thread. It is quite sad just how rampant this evil practice is around the world, and yes, it does actually have much to do with Hadith. There are fabricated Hadith out there which speak of the women's best place of Salah being the 'deepest corner of their bedroom', and that it is better for them not to pray in the Mosques, and that their whole body is 'fitnah' which must not be seen outside their homes. The message of such Hadith shape and mould the anti-women mentality in many Muslims' minds - including many women's minds. You will find that to defend their position of keeping women away from the places of Salah, and for granting them next-to-nothing space by the shoe-racks at the back of the mosques, the only 'argument' they bring forward is rooted in such man-made Hadith. So yes, it actually is very important to run a mosque according to the Qur'an only, and in doing so, if this creates 'differences' between the Qur'anic mosque and the traditional deviant mosque - then so be it.

Apparently, right here in the UK, 60% of mosques don't have proper access for women to perform their Salah, and this includes the very mosques I visit locally. The one I visit most frequently is mostly to blame for their neglect of granting women access to their spaces (by at-least opening the doors), and the mosque closest to our home doesn't seem to know that women even exist! (it doesn't have ANY space for women). This pagan-Arab attitude towards women has recently been surfacing even at Masjid Al-Haram, where it was proposed that women's space around the Ka'bah be permanently moved away from the Ka'bah, leaving the area solely for the men's pleasure. Please see the following link for more information on this cunning attempt to change women's space at Masjid Al-Haram:

http://www.islamicboard.com/general-chat/27724-rejection-haram-prayer-proposal.html


There has recently been a TV-programme on British Television, which showed a group of brothers and sisters who have bravely decided to speak out against such injustice in the mosques, and have set out to try and change the way such mosques control prayer-space. I want to say that although I totally admire and support their courage and motives, I don't agree with the raising of voices / aggression from BOTH sides.

This is the TV-advert / trailer for the Programme:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=97LUJkOczGk

This is a 10-minutes-long shortened 'highlights'-version:



This is the full-length actual Programme (including subtitles):

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=8181638719321361367


wasalam

[Zainab_M]

   br. ameen

You got it quite wrong.  Nobody here or anywhere is downplaying the curse of gender discrimination at mosques.  But there ought to be a practical and civilized  way of going about with it.  No matter how noble my cause might be, but if I simply get whipped up into a temper and head towards a showdown, I'll actually be undermining my goal rather than ever achieving it. This reminds to refer to the excellent documentary of sister Zerqa Nawaz, the same sister who's directed the movie "The Little Mosque on the Prairies."  Regardless of what one stands for, something that every rational and educated person would try to avoid is a confrontational spirit while promoting one's views.  It is wholly becoz of this attitude that Islam today has so wrongly acquired the reputation of a religion of force.  If the rational minded moderates try to clamp down their intolerance with the same rashness as the mainstream conservatives .. the end result would only be a big bang and nothing productive.  So I totally disagree with your attitude that if differences exist between the Quraan only and traditional mosques, "so be it."  You've fished out a delicious recipe for a perfect disaster!   Not to mention, if you take a world-wide opinion poll, majority of the women will disagree with the very concept of a division as the purpose for establishing a mosque.  Divisions in any community for any reasons is not the most wonderful of things.  Erecting a place of worship on the foundations of a division would be pathetic, to say the least. 

Of course lots of Hadeeth are responsible for this culture of gender inequality at mosques.  That goes without saying.  If not Hadeeth then what?   And Ahadeeth give conflicting accounts.  They've always been contradictory and inconsistent.  Some narrations categorically say women must attend mosques for prayers while others state much the opposite.  Most of us haven't read each and every Hadeeth that floats around becoz new ones keep popping up every decade, depending upon the political & social climate and the whims of the imams & sheiks.  Definitely this is a major problem and needs to be handled.  But it doesn't mean that the 'reformers' must lose their sense of balance, rationality and respect and get just as the blinded as the conservatives.  I would suggest never forget that the promotion or demotion of every ideology depends largely upon the method it involves and the reactions it stirs up among the people.  Not caring a damn whether or not to divide a society could turn a great cause into an unpleasant epiosde.  History itself has been witness to it for hundreds of years uptil today.     

Moreover, while cleaning up our society, the concept of priorities is the biggest factor.  Though far from civilized, stopping sisters from going to the mosque is not the only negative culture that's been perpetrated by the mullahs through Hadeeth.  There are many more practices that clash totally with the dictates of the Glorious Quraan and the teachings of the beloved Prophet (pbuh) and are in dire need of being abolished e.g. generating hatred toward non-Muslims, the culture of apostacy, death for adultery, introduction of superstitious practices in Islam, rude gossips about the beloved Prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) personal life, vulgar narrations that cannot be read in congregations nor to children, narrations that allow men to force their wives into having sex with them, narrations that permit men to insult their wives (all these being still more misogynistic than disallowing women from going to the mosque), accusing raped women for adultery while not bringing any charges against the rapist, and I could go on and on.  These are all stuff that have emerged from Hadeeth and found their way into the legal system of various Muslim countries under one label or another.  I repeat, though I absolutely dislike the practice of segregating sisters during salaah at masjids, those other aspects I've mentioned are just as hurtful, some even more.   Thus, I wouldn't acquire a very huge sense of accomplishment if I led a demonstration and won my right of offering prayers with my brothers in faith in the same room, while all those other violations introduced by Hadeeth were still rife in my society.  I would have achieved only a fraction of my goal and my mission would still be far from complete.  How could I feel genuninely happy even if I was allowed to offer my salaah in the same hall as my brothers, if prior to my salaah time I got the news that Amina Lawal had been stoned to death for being raped and giving birth to a baby while her violator was permitted to go scott free?  I want my hard work to be on the basis of my aspirations, not just for the purpose of making headlines in the media.  Nevertheless, achieving a fraction is better than achieving nothing and most importantly it should remind us for being focused on the concept of priorities.

If there are any segments of brothers and sisters who truly consider themselves conscientious desiring to clean up dirty innovations, then they first need to sit down at the table and work upon making a list by setting up such priorities.  Working without a clear-cut and comprehensive agenda will only result in big talk, disrespectful hostilities, deep divisions and little or no benefits to the vast majority .. much to the amusement of the outsiders!   So far, we've achieved nothing beyond this drama.  I don't mean to sound harsh, but I must say with a very heavy heart that I perceive many of our 'dedicated volunteers' being too selfishly selective about their reforms.


P.S.  Also, the point raised by kat against the two genders mixing up in the same group is a very valid one.  As it's been mentioned umpteens of times, women and men offering salaah in the same room is fine, but many innovators demand that they mingle in the same congregation which according to all sisters I've talked to isn't as fine as the innovators presume.

[ameen]

  You got it quite wrong.  Nobody here or anywhere is downplaying the curse of gender discrimination at mosques.  But there ought to be a practical and civilized  way of going about with it.  No matter how noble my cause might be, but if I simply get whipped up into a temper and head towards a showdown, I'll actually be undermining my goal rather than ever achieving it. This reminds to refer to the excellent documentary of sister Zerqa Nawaz, the same sister who's directed the movie "The Little Mosque on the Prairies."  Regardless of what one stands for, something that every rational and educated person would try to avoid is a confrontational spirit while promoting one's views.  It is wholly becoz of this attitude that Islam today has so wrongly acquired the reputation of a religion of force.  If the rational minded moderates try to clamp down their intolerance with the same rashness as the mainstream conservatives .. the end result would only be a big bang and nothing productive.  So I totally disagree with your attitude that if differences exist between the Quraan only and traditional mosques, "so be it."  You've fished out a delicious recipe for a perfect disaster!   Not to mention, if you take a world-wide opinion poll, majority of the women will disagree with the very concept of a division as the purpose for establishing a mosque.  Divisions in any community for any reasons is not the most wonderful of things.  Erecting a place of worship on the foundations of a division would be pathetic, to say the least. 

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salam sr. zeynab,

The word 'differences' is not the same as 'divisions'. When somebody tries to run something according to the Qur'an only, although this may create DIFFERENCES with others who are Not running theirs according to the Qur'an, this does not mean that the intention of the person is to create DIVISIONS or hostilities with the others. For example, sr. zeynab, you run this wonderful forum according to the Qur'an only, so just because this forum is DIFFERENT to other forums in that sense, would I be right to assume that you intend to DIVIDE the online Muslim community with this forum, and that you have created this forum on the 'foundations of division' ?

P.S.  Also, the point raised by kat against the two genders mixing up in the same group is a very valid one.  As it's been mentioned umpteens of times, women and men offering salaah in the same room is fine, but many innovators demand that they mingle in the same congregation which according to all sisters I've talked to isn't as fine as the innovators presume. [/font]

[/size]

Running a mosque according to the Qur'an does not necessarily mean that we want to get men and women to mingle in the same congregation, and is not what AceOfHearts suggested with his opening post either. Running a mosque according to the Qur'an will mean that we can at-least allow proper access to women in the first place. I agree with you that although there are other innovations introduced through Hadith, the restricting of women's access to mosques is something we must not neglect and shove under the carpet, and should also try to eradicate : )

wasalam

[Zainab_M]

salam sr. zeynab,

The word 'differences' is not the same as 'divisions'. When somebody tries to run something according to the Qur'an only, although this may create DIFFERENCES with others who are Not running theirs according to the Qur'an, this does not mean that the intention of the person is to create DIVISIONS or hostilities with the others. For example, sr. zeynab, you run this wonderful forum according to the Qur'an only, so just because this forum is DIFFERENT to other forums in that sense, would I be right to assume that you intend to DIVIDE the online Muslim community with this forum, and that you have created this forum on the 'foundations of division' ?

There would be a variation in the dictionary definition of 'difference' and 'division.' but in the context of our discussion, the term 'difference,' does lead to a division.  However, i'm not saying that's wrong.  But what i meant and said was the method involved in expressing that difference (as you mentioned) could have far-reaching affects which might not necessarily be positive.

Secondly, I talked about priorities.  If we are truly interested in starting a movement, lets do it officially and formally.  And lets take all of the aspects required for upgrading our community.  When I say community, i mean the entire Muslim community worldwide, not just in UK or Western Europe.  Our sisters in these places make up only a drop in the ocean.  Its important to know that by far the majority of our sisters in the developing world are suffering a lot more than us here.  Thus for them, simply not being allowed in mosques is the least of their woes.  But compared to them, just a handful of those sisters living abroad are much luckier.  They can make themselves heard if abused by their husbands or parents, if divorced they get their share of finances, if raped, they can go to the nearest police office and lodge a complaint without being afraid of being charged with adultery and so on. Our sisters in the developing world do NOT have these 'perks.' Thus, not being allowed to pray in the same room with the brothers seems a big deal to the sisters here.  I'm not saying it isn't a big deal.  I repeat (perhaps for the 100th time), it is awful.  But if we call ourselves conscientious reformists, we shouldn't just make a hullabaloo of this issue, create a division only about this aspect and stop here.  This is NOT the only injustice our sisters are suffering.  We ought to be more broadly focused, which we are not at the moment.  That's what I meant by priorities. Keeping this in mind, it seems to me that, to an extent, we are creating a storm in a teacup. 

In any case, your analogy wasn't the most perfect one.  My forum is different from others.  It's different from the mainstream ones, and it's still more different from Free Minds .. thank Allah for that!  and yes, it is a division about which i'm very sad.  I cannot say how much I wish our forums had a basic level of compatibility. I don't want our mosques to follow the example of our forums.  Mosques are a lot more important as a venue for Muslims than online forums.  Having divisions in forums is unfortunate enough.  Having similar divisions in various mosques would be (I repeat) pathetic.

Running a mosque according to the Qur'an does not necessarily mean that we want to get men and women to mingle in the same congregation, and is not what AceOfHearts suggested with his opening post either. Running a mosque according to the Qur'an will mean that we can at-least allow proper access to women in the first place. I agree with you that although there are other innovations introduced through Hadith, the restricting of women's access to mosques is something we must not neglect and shove under the carpet, and should also try to eradicate : )

wasalam

I know Ace of Hearts didn't mean that.  Cat just mentioned it, by the way.  and I said it was a valid point.

Restricting women to access the mosque is detestable.  Did i ever say otherwise?  I guess brother, u r not reading every word of what I've mentioned.  You haven't even caught the sense of it.