Aren't the Hadithists doing the same?

[Ruhi_Rose]

 



"And when Allah alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who believe not in the Hereafter are repelled, and when those (whom they worship) beside Him are mentioned, behold! they are glad."   (39:45) Az-Zumar.

This is a very interesting analogy worth thinking.  Whenever I read this verse, I get reminded of the similarity of approach between the idolaters of Mecca and the many so-called Muslims today. 

Allah says in this verse about the idolaters that when they were told to worship Allah alone, they would feel offended and repelled.  But when they were allowed to associate partners with Allah by mentioning their false gods then they would be very pleased. 

And think what the Hadithists are doing today.  When told to follow and obey the Quran alone, they frown, yell, fight and refuse to accept the Quran alone.  But when the Hadith is associated with the Quran, they are delightful.

Ya Allah, please guide this Ummah and grant them better vision.  Ameen.

[Zainab_M]

Ah yes!  well pointed out sister Ruhi.  I've thought of this so often myself.  This analogy really explains the issue well. 

[Ozcan]

Very true sister Ruhi Rose. In my experience most Muslims get really annoyed and even hostile to people talking about the Qur'an. When you tell them for example that there is no such thing as Qadar/predestination among the pillars of faith (iman) in the Qur'an, they immediately consider you a kafir and resort to personal attacks. Qadar is mentioned in other verses, but as we all know has nothing to do with free will whatsoever...

The truth is there are 3 verses in the glorious Qur'an mentioning the pillars of faith. And guess what? None of those verses mentions qadar; there are only 5 pillars of faith in the Qur'an, not 6. But since Allah has forgotten to mention "qadar", our benevolent imams Bukhari and Muslim corrected Allah's mistake (taubah)!! The contradicting hadiths about the pillars of faith in Sahih Bukhari and Muslim are hilarious by the way. It's such an obvious fabrication.

[Zainab_M]

I've also often heard traditional Muslims talking of human fate being predestined which according to the Quran is not true .. very understandably so.  Almighty Allah has made it very clear that He has provided humans with the freedom to act and decide, and subsequently His judgment is based on their actions.  Thus the Verse:  "Lo! Allah changeth not the condition of a folk until they (first) change that which is in their hearts; and if Allah willeth misfortune for a folk there is none that can repel it, nor have they a defender beside Him.."  (13:11) Surah Ar-Ra'd.   A careful reading of this verse defines exactly that.  When Allah wills misfortune for a person, it's not based on partiality nor is it without reason.  The reason is our own actions and that makes us responsible for our deeds.  Of course Allah can make anything happen.  Therefore we should not think that Allah cannot preordain fate unconditionally if He wants to, rather He chooses not to.  If Allah had fixed / predestined our fate without giving us the ability to choose between right and wrong, then why would He punish people for their doing wrong?   We had a long discussion on this topic a few years ago with another brother who believed in pre-ordainment of fate.  Links given below for reference.

Fate and Destiny - how would one interpret this
http://muslimvilla.smfforfree.com/index.php?topic=478.0

On Fate and Destiny
http://muslimvilla.smfforfree.com/index.php?topic=1371.0

More on fate and how Allah preordains it
http://muslimvilla.smfforfree.com/index.php?topic=1450.0

We cannot say we are not responsible for our fate
http://muslimvilla.smfforfree.com/index.php?topic=2338.0

Is Islam a Religion of Fatalism by Shahul Hameed
http://muslimvilla.smfforfree.com/index.php?topic=2170.0

The idea of predestination actually started from the era of the Ommayads.  I quote from my post Amr bi al-Maruf Wa Nahy al-an Munkir: "The Ummayads had an autocratic trend and they were not enthusiastic about peoples' opinion.  Because of their many political blunders, the Ummayads were in need of the theory of Predestination, meaning, man is not responsible for his actions because all human actions proceed from God.  But as per the contents of the Noble Quran confirmed by Allah Almighty, the Ummayad view of predestination is not quite correct.   Though Allah is All-Powerful and All-Knowing and can do anything at anytime, He has generally chosen to pre-ordain human fate in accordance with human action.  Allah Almighty has plainly stated in the Noble Quran that He has given humankind a conscience and it's upto them whether they make it grow or leave it stunted.  Allah has also said in the Quran that He does not change the condition of people until they first change that which is in their hearts.  For reference, check Quranic verses 13:11, 8:23, 8:29, 8:53 and most importantly 91:8-10.  There are also many more verses that express the concept of human ability to initiate actions and thus reap its reward or consequences."

[Ozcan]

Thank you sister Zeynab for those links.

[muslima]

"And when Allah alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who believe not in the Hereafter are repelled, and when those (whom they worship) beside Him are mentioned, behold! they are glad."   (39:45) Az-Zumar.

This is a very interesting analogy worth thinking.  Whenever I read this verse, I get reminded of the similarity of approach between the idolaters of Mecca and the many so-called Muslims today. 

Allah says in this verse about the idolaters that when they were told to worship Allah alone, they would feel offended and repelled.  But when they were allowed to associate partners with Allah by mentioning their false gods then they would be very pleased. 

And think what the Hadithists are doing today.  When told to follow and obey the Quran alone, they frown, yell, fight and refuse to accept the Quran alone.  But when the Hadith is associated with the Quran, they are delightful.

Ya Allah, please guide this Ummah and grant them better vision.  Ameen.

  sister ruhi
so true today's muslims are the same idolaters .u can't make them realise and pleased with Quran alone buT with bunch of ahadiths ,stories well this is a impact of hadith culture they are unable to understand  and accept the message of Allah  trust on their imams ,their false promises,fales claims please them rather than Allah's true promiss in the other senses it's  shirk .idolatry of Hadithists,imams and scholars is shirk and mushrik feels disgusted when the Oneness of Allah is mentioned.
 
And on the day We gather them together We shall say unto those who ascribed partners (unto Allah): Where are (now) those partners of your make-believe?6:22

[muslima]

I've also often heard traditional Muslims talking of human fate being predestined which according to the Quran is not true .. very understandably so.  Almighty Allah has made it very clear that He has provided humans with the freedom to act and decide, and subsequently His judgment is based on their actions.  Thus the Verse:  "Lo! Allah changeth not the condition of a folk until they (first) change that which is in their hearts; and if Allah willeth misfortune for a folk there is none that can repel it, nor have they a defender beside Him.."  (13:11) Surah Ar-Ra'd.   A careful reading of this verse defines exactly that.  When Allah wills misfortune for a person, it's not based on partiality nor is it without reason.  The reason is our own actions and that makes us responsible for our deeds.  Of course Allah can make anything happen.  Therefore we should not think that Allah cannot preordain fate unconditionally if He wants to, rather He chooses not to.  If Allah had fixed / predestined our fate without giving us the ability to choose between right and wrong, then why would He punish people for their doing wrong?   We had a long discussion on this topic a few years ago with another brother who believed in pre-ordainment of fate.  Links given below for reference.

Fate and Destiny - how would one interpret this
http://muslimvilla.smfforfree.com/index.php?topic=478.0

On Fate and Destiny
http://muslimvilla.smfforfree.com/index.php?topic=1371.0

More on fate and how Allah preordains it
http://muslimvilla.smfforfree.com/index.php?topic=1450.0

We cannot say we are not responsible for our fate
http://muslimvilla.smfforfree.com/index.php?topic=2338.0

Is Islam a Religion of Fatalism by Shahul Hameed
http://muslimvilla.smfforfree.com/index.php?topic=2170.0

The idea of predestination actually started from the era of the Ommayads.  I quote from my post Amr bi al-Maruf Wa Nahy al-an Munkir: "The Ummayads had an autocratic trend and they were not enthusiastic about peoples' opinion.  Because of their many political blunders, the Ummayads were in need of the theory of Predestination, meaning, man is not responsible for his actions because all human actions proceed from God.  But as per the contents of the Noble Quran confirmed by Allah Almighty, the Ummayad view of predestination is not quite correct.   Though Allah is All-Powerful and All-Knowing and can do anything at anytime, He has generally chosen to pre-ordain human fate in accordance with human action.  Allah Almighty has plainly stated in the Noble Quran that He has given humankind a conscience and it's upto them whether they make it grow or leave it stunted.  Allah has also said in the Quran that He does not change the condition of people until they first change that which is in their hearts.  For reference, check Quranic verses 13:11, 8:23, 8:29, 8:53 and most importantly 91:8-10.  There are also many more verses that express the concept of human ability to initiate actions and thus reap its reward or consequences."

  sister zeynab.Jazak Allah .thanks for links will read inshallah.
  (13:11) Surah Ar-Ra'd !! Perfect verse .very well said sis Such limited understanding has no Quranic basis the truth is people always looked for someone to blame rather then consider their own practices whether its fate which is men-made logic ..Those who work hard only for personal achievements for this world are often weak in faith.The fact that our actions are either rewarded or punished by Allah means,that we have control over them.? Otherwise, the reward and punishment cannot be fair ? We cannot blame Allah for our actions. I don't understand why do people mostly consider success and failure Only  for this world i guess our understandings are WRONG we don't understand the purpose of our life .this is a trial ,test this life is not foreve and Allah mention several time in quran second life wil be forever. And the success and failures of this life depend on our intentions and actions whatever is that good or bad and we will be rewarded or punished on the based on them in this life and the next life too ?Isn't ?? Correct my understanding via  these verses if I am wrong ?

He it is Who hath created you from clay, and hath decreed a term for you. A term is fixed with Him. Yet still ye doubt 6:2
Naught is the life of the world save a pastime and a spot. Better far is the abode of the Hereafter for those who keep their duty (to Allah). Have ye then no sense? 6:32
Assuredly ye will be tried in your property and in your persons 3:186
And surely We shall try you with something of fear and hunger, and loss of wealth and lives and crops; but give glad tidings to the steadfast,2:155
Who say, when a misfortune striketh them: Lo! we are Allah's and lo! unto Him we are returning 2:156
Such are they on whom are blessings from their Lord, and mercy. Such are the rightly guided.2:157
And whoso doeth good an atom's weight will see it then, 99:7
And whoso doeth ill an atom's weight will see it then.99:8
 
No senses of fate and destiny . Only intention and action with freedom ??  life of believer is trial ? 

[Ruhi_Rose]

Thanks sister Muslima and brother Ozcan.  This attitude of Hadithists making the Quran dependent upon Hadith by claiming that the Quran cannot be understood without Hadith is clear blasphemy with large elements of shirk.  It amounts to taking away the standalone status of the Great Quran and making the Divine Speech dependent on a discrepant man-written work for its explanation.  I also do not agree with the flawed and arrogant notion that the Quran does not explain everything.   That's not true at all.  The Quran comprises of direct commandments and also general principles for deducing conclusions for the daily occurrences of life.  For example, adultery / fornication is Haram in the Quran.  The Quranic punishment for adultery is 100 lashes if enough evidence is found (and lashes are not really meant to inflict physical injury - check more here).  In any case, evidence or no evidence, whoever  indulges in this act will have to face grave consequences in the Hereafter.  That's the main punishment.  This is a clear Quranic commandment.   Now, supposing, if a woman gives birth to a baby as a result of an adulterous relationship, should that baby also be punished with its parents??  The answer according to the principles of the Quran would be absolutely NO.   The Quran has already stated that no soul bears another's load.  The Quran makes is crystal clear that parents won't have to answer for their children and neither will the children have to answer for their parents.  Further, the Quran commands us to use our reason.  Our reason tells us that adultery or fornication is an intentional violation by those who indulge in it.  A new born baby, if it's born out of the act of adultery committed by others, has NOT committed any intentional violations.   Yet, there are many hardline clerics who have floated fatwas that a baby born out of adultery must also be punished.  Their excuse is that Quran does not mention what needs to be done with illegitimate children so these clerics think they are entitled to make their own laws.  That's how moronic they are.  What they haven't yet been able to understand is that the problem is with their own minds which is so feeble and unable to go into the depth of the Quran.   These so-called scholars and ulemas have grabbed the right to think for themselves and make faulty laws because their thoughts are faulty and un-Quranic to begin with.  But they disallow others from thinking rationally and deducing their own conclusions based on Quranic principles.  How ironic and tragic.

[Heba E. Husseyn]

MashAllah, sisters and brother .. your discussion is thoroughly illuninating.  Verse 12 of Surah Al-Mumin also reminds me somewhat of the mindset of many of these guys today.

" ....  This is (your plight) because, when Allah only was invoked, ye disbelieved, but when some partner was ascribed to Him ye were believing. ...."  (40:12).