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Ramadan Sahoor & Fatoor timings and Fajr & Maghrib prayers


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Author Topic: Ramadan Sahoor & Fatoor timings and Fajr & Maghrib prayers  (Read 1506 times)
abbottonian
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« on: July 11, 2013, 09:45:03 am »

Assalam Alaikum
Sisters & Brothers
I need your response ASAP.
Yesterday on 10th of July 2013 I offered my Fajr prayers in congregation at 4:20AM and after the prayers Imam said that "tomorrow Fajr congregation will be held at 3:40 am and they set the final time of having Sahoor till 3:20.I checked in the Holy Quraan and found the timings  Al-Quraan 2:187 so I did not bother about what the Imam said and I kept on eating till the Fajr congregation was over in Masjid .I offered my Fajr at home.Now I want to ask if my fast is valid or not because I want to break my fast after praying Maghrib  when it becomes night.Am I keeping myself simply hungry or my fast would be valid?
Who gave them the authority to change the time  one hour before the existing time in a single day.?These Imams do not bring any good to the community but suffering to women here in our part of the world where she has to prepare food for at least 7 persons.
Ramadan Kareem

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Heba E. Husseyn
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« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2013, 09:06:05 pm »

Walaikum Salam brother ....  this is a common violation which imams indulge in .. by ignoring Quranic information and ordering wrong timings for Sahoor and Iftar only to put believers into greater inconvenience.     

Your analysis is the correct one, the imam is wrong.  When we consult the Noble Quran on the issue of Sahoor, we find that the Quran says we can eat  until the white thread of dawn is visible.  That is approximately 40 minutes (at least) prior to sunrise, even though the clerics have fixed the Fajr prayer timing more than one hour prior to sunrise when it's pitch dark.  Therefore according to Quranic information, one can eat until even after the fixed Fajr time.  However, even otherwise,  you can definitely eat sahoor until the official Fajr prayer timing (which I suppose in Pakistan is approximately 4.15 a.m. as I was told by some friends) and then offer your Fajr prayers.

Similarly it's also just as important to remember that majority of Muslims, because of wrong advise from their imams, take their Iftar at the wrong time, often invalidating their fast by violating Quranic commandments.  The Quran categorically states that we must fast from dawn to nightfall (the term used in the Quran is "leil").  "Leil" or  "nightfall" means complete darkness of the night which takes place approximately 30 to 40 minutes after sunset or Maghrib time.  This means we must first offer our Maghrib salaat and then wait for a while until the darkness has fully taken place before starting to eat our Iftar.  Sunset or Maghrib time is referred in the Quran as "dhulook as-shams."  It's important to know the natural truth as ordained by Allah that there is a difference of 30 to 40 minutes between dhulook-as-shams and leil.  Yet most of us take Iftar as dhulook as-shams by ignoring the order of Allah and following the wrong order of the imams. 

For complete information with direct references from the Noble Quran on Sahoor and Iftar, please check our following posts:

Until what time can you eat sahoor?
http://muslimvilla.smfforfree.com/index.php?topic=880.0

Be careful to break you fast at the right time.
http://muslimvilla.smfforfree.com/index.php?topic=3431.0

What's the right time for taking Iftar?
http://muslimvilla.smfforfree.com/index.php?topic=2190.0


JazekAllah khair.  I hope this information has been helpful.   
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abbottonian
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« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2013, 02:23:34 pm »

Assalam Alaikum
Thank you very much Sister Heba for your detailed post and Alhamdu lillah I am keeping my fast this time according to the directions of Holy Quraan and breaking my fast when it becomes dark and and I offer my night prayers at home in the later part of the night  and I really feel the nearness of Allah.may Allah guide all Muslims towards the right path.Ameen
jazak Allah khair.
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« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2013, 06:00:18 am »

Walaikum Salam.  Alhumdulilah.  Very wise decision brother.  My family and I do exactly the same.
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« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2013, 06:08:45 am »

the Quran says we can eat  until the white thread of dawn is visible.  That is approximately 40 minutes (at least) prior to sunrise, even though the clerics have fixed the Fajr prayer timing more than one hour prior to sunrise when it's pitch dark.   

  Just a slight correction of myself concerning the time calculation I mentioned yesterday ....

The first glimmer of dawn (which the Noble Quran refers to as the white thread of dawn) is visible not 40 minutes but approximately 1 hour before sunrise. 

For example, if sunrise time is 5.45 a.m., then dawn or Fajr will appear around 4.45 a.m., that is, about one hour ahead.  But the imams would fix the Fajr prayer timing as 4.00 a.m., too early, when it's absolutely dark with no white thread of dawn in the atmosphere.
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« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2013, 02:15:46 pm »

Assalaam Alikum
Thanks you sis Heba for clarification.All praise for Allah who has blessed us with wisdom and common sense.The word for night in Arabic is "Lail"and for day is "Nihar"therefore when the sun is not visible and the twilight has faded away we can say the night has started.This is what I think.I would like to have your wise comment on this.
Allah bless you and all those who seek guidance through Quraan. 
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« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2013, 10:40:23 pm »

Walaikum Salam brother Abbottonian.  Actually the reason why I wait for 20 or 25 minutes after Maghrib salat is because from what I understand (and many would concur) that the Noble Quran makes it quite clear that night does not start as soon as daylight ends.  It has a transition period called sunset or dhulooki ash-shams.  For this reason, Maghrib prayer in the Quran is neither referred to as daylight prayer nor night prayer.  But it's referred to as the prayer to be offered as soon as the sun goes down which is dhulooki ash-shams or maghrib ash-shams (sunset).  This period is in between day and nightfall.  And from our practical experiences we would know that the atmosphere contains quite a lot of brightness at sunset when we offer our Maghrib salat.  What's absent is the rays of the sun which makes it different from daylight, but sufficient visibility is still there for more than half an hour to distinguish it from nightfall.  And the Quran mentions "nightfall" as the time for breaking the fast. 

Wa Kulū Wa Ashrabū Ĥattá Yatabayyana Lakumu Al-Khayţu Al-'Abyađu Mina Al-Khayţi Al-'Aswadi Mina Al-Fajri  ۖ  Thumma 'Atimmū Aş-Şiyāma 'Ilá Al-Layli    (2:187)

Translation:
"eat and drink until the white thread becometh distinct to you from the black thread of the dawn. Then strictly observe the fast till nightfall" (2:187)


So, in my opinion, the right procedure would be to wait until at least 20 minutes after Maghrib prayer to open the fast.

I'll also quote Verse 17:78 of Surah Al-Isra which is a clear evidence that night does not begin immediately after the sun goes down.

"Aqimi Aş-Şalāata Lidulūki Ash-Shamsi 'Ilá Ghasaqi Al-Layli Wa Qur'āna Al-Fajri  ۖ  'Inna Qur'āna Al-Fajri Kāna Mash/hūdāan   

Translation:
"Establish worship at the going do'wn of the sun until the dark of night, and (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn. Lo! (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn is ever witnessed." 


The underlined portion of the above Verse highlights the timing of Maghrib salat.  Maghrib salat to be offered when the sun goes down, that is sunset time, until the atmosphere gets dark.  This means that as soon as the atmosphere gets dark, the time for Maghrib prayer is over.  Hence, obviously, sunset time is not the same as nightfall or leil.  In Verse 17:78 the Arabic term used for sunset is   دلوك الشمس  (dulook al-shams), and the Arabic term for "darkness of night" is  ليل  (leil).  Another expression used in the Quran for sunset or setting of the sun which is مغرب الشمس  (Maghrib al-shams).   This expression has been used in Verse 18:86 of Surah Al-Kahf.   Thus, leil (night) is not the same as dulooki-ash-shams or maghrib ash-shams.  That point seems quite clear and obvious to me.
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« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2013, 11:11:17 pm »

That's right .... daylight does not immediately become nightfall.  Rather it transcends gradually into nightfall through the various stages of sunset which takes 30 to 40 minutes.

Just as Fajr gradually changes into daylight, similarly sunset slowly gives way to complete darkness or nightfall.  Hence, just as there is a difference between  Fajr and daylight, similarly there is a difference between sunset and nightfall. 

Sunset or Maghrib-ash-shams is the transition between daylight and nightfall.

Traditional mainstream Muslims (who are always Hadith followers) don't want to accept this fact, even though it's so clearly and emphatically elucidated in the Quran.  The practice of sitting down for Iftar as soon as the Maghrib adhan is heard comes from various ahadith which have refused to recognize the difference between sunset and nightfall.  The correct and truthful definition of nightfall is complete darkness when no colors can be seen on the sky.  Let me quote 2 Bukhari ahadith as follows:

"Once the entire disk of the sun has disappeared below the horizon, the fasting person should break his fast and not pay any attention to the red glow that remains in the horizon."

The above Hadith is one of the lies by Bukhari because of which majority of Muslims have formed the habit of breaking their fast dot at sunset time.   But when we compare the contents of this hadith with Quranic information containing the difference between sunset and night, this hadith is in clear violation of the Quran.  When the sky is full of red glow which is the final stages of sunset, that's not yet nightfall.  As long as the red glow brightens the sky, we can even offer our maghrib prayer.  So how can anyone call that nightfall? 

Another bad Bukhari hadith writes as follows: 

"Once night comes from there and the day disappears from there, and the sun has set, the fasting person should break his fast."

Completely senseless!  It contradicts the Noble Quran, and it contradicts the entire natural evening phenomenon as ordained by Allah Almighty.
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« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2013, 11:21:27 pm »



Narrated Ibn Abi Aufa:
We were in the company of Allah's Apostle on a journey. He said to a man, "Get down and mix Sawiq (powdered barley) with water for me." The man said, "The sun (has not set yet), O Allah's Apostle." The Prophet again said to him, "Get down and mix Sawiq with water for me." The man again said, "O Allah's Apostle! The sun!" The Prophet said to him (for the third time) "Get down and mix Sawiq with water for me." The man dismounted and mixed Sawiq with water for him. The Prophet drank it and then beckoned with his hand (towards the East) and said, "When you see the night falling from this side, then a fasting person should break his fast." (Sahih Bukhari 3:31:162).

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« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2013, 11:25:52 pm »

LOL, if the hadith narrators and compilers can go far enough to lie by saying that the Prophet (sw) broke his fast when the sun was still on the sky, then I guess it's no big deal for them to neglect the difference between sunset and nightfall. 
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« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2013, 11:26:54 pm »

Exactly ..
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« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2013, 09:48:48 am »

Very well explained I have no difference on this. I wait after Maghrib for 30 minutes to be much safer.
And regarding Bukhari item posted by RohiRose. Bukhari always tries to make the ordinary Muslim believe that the Prophet himself was not acting according to Quraan and his companions were disobedient to him.Yes Bukhari will have to explain everything he compiled in Allah's Court.
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« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2013, 06:26:22 pm »

Allah bless you, brother.   

And yes,  you're right.  The Hadith literature is very keen to show that the Prophet (sw) was not particular on following the Quranic instructions .... whereas the truth is that the Prophet (sw) meticulously followed ONLY the Quran. 

Additionally, the Hadith also tries to show that the Prophet (sw) was very autocratic like a dictator who spoke to his people in a very commanding and angry tone, including the Hadith. quoted above.  Again, the opposite of the truth.  The Prophet (sw) is known throughout history as being the most gentle and humble person.  Even Western historians and orientalists acknowledge this fact.  In Verse 3:159 Allah confirms that the Prophet was lenient with his followers.  In the same Verse, Allah also tells the Prophet to make decisions with mutual consultations with his people which the Prophet did.  In Verse 68:4, Allah compliments the Prophet by stating that the Prophet has a "tremendous nature."   In Verse 69:40 Allah addresses the Prophet as an "illustrious messenger," Alhumdulilah.  In Surah Al-Anbiya, Verse 107, Allah confirms that He sent the final messenger as a mercy for mankind: "We sent thee not save as a mercy for the peoples."    Yet, the Hadith keeps portraying the beloved Prophet (sw) as a disobedient and proud man.  AstaghfarAllah.  Only Allah will deal with these liars on the Final Day, InshAllah.

In Surah Ad-Duha (Chapter 93) and Surah Al-Kausar (Chapter 108), Allah expresses His love and His kindnesses which He bestowed on the Prophet.  In Verse 33:56 Allah mentions:  "Lo! Allah and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! Ask blessings on him and salute him with a worthy salutation."   Would Allah ever address the Prophet with such admiration and love if the Prophet had behaved as the Hadith liars accuse him of?  Yet I don't know why the Muslims today don't think and instead blindly accept whatever the imams say.  It's obvious that for majority of Muslims their imams are more important to them than the Noble Quran.  For that reason, they are not in a position to reflect on the commandments of the Quran because they never consult the Quran for finding answers.  Instead they consult the Hadith or seek fatwas from their so-called scholars & ulemas on what's Halal or what's Haram.  Very sad situation for the Ummah.
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« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2013, 01:34:22 pm »

Allah keep you protected and blessed always.
Yes that is what Quraan says about these people 17:46
"And We place upon their hearts veils lest they should understand it, and in their ears a deafness; and when thou makest mention of thy Lord alone in the Qur'an, they turn their backs in aversion".
and in 25:30
"And the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) will say: "O my Lord! Verily, my people deserted this Quran (neither listened to it, nor acted on its laws and orders)".
I will quote exactly what a person said in front of 15 people while I was having a discussion before a dinner party and to my astonishment and grief he said"Quraan has no value without sunnah" Astaghfirullah.and this is the pathetic condition of the majority of Muslims today The day of judgment is not far it is just a blink of an eye away as Allah mentions in Quraan so every contradiction will be made clear and InshaAllah we will not be standing in that group who blindly followed the man written books instead of the Holy Quraan.
Stay Blessed always
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« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2013, 12:38:48 am »


I will quote exactly what a person said in front of 15 people while I was having a discussion before a dinner party and to my astonishment and grief he said"Quraan has no value without sunnah" Astaghfirullah.and this is the pathetic condition of the majority of Muslims today The day of judgment is not far it is just a blink of an eye away as Allah mentions in Quraan so every contradiction will be made clear and InshaAllah we will not be standing in that group who blindly followed the man written books instead of the Holy Quraan.
Stay Blessed always

AstaghfarAllah!  Taubah!!  Whoever said this must be standing in the depth of Shaitan's misguidance.  Indeed Allah is watching and listening to everything.  You're right brother, Day of Judgment is very close.   Unthinking and ignorant minds think the Day of Judgment would be millions of years away.  But no.  Allah says in the Quran that on the Day they are raised, it will seem as if they have tarried for a few hours or a day or part of a day.  That's the way they will feel even if they died thousands of years ago.  So, from the practical view point we can say that the Day of Judgment as confirmed by Allah is only a few hours or a day or two after death.

"On the day when they behold it, it will be as if they had but tarried for an evening or the morn thereof."  (79:46).   Allah Almighty has mentioned this aspect in several other verses as well.
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