Divorce in the Quran.

[MurtezaAFG]

As Salaamu Alaikum wa rahmatullah.

I'm writing to you guys today in hopes to find an answer for the case of divorce in Islam.

When a man and a woman get married, the man has to pay a dowry.
He must not take the dowry back unless the woman gives it back as charity or in the case that the woman wants to divorce and the man does not.
In the latter, she must give back part/all of the dowry for her release from the marriage.

I have 2 questions regarding this:

1. Doesn't a penny technically count as part of the dowry?
2. What about in the case where the husband is treating the wife poorly (abusive verbally, taking away certain rights etc.) and the wife wants to divorce but the husband says no? Does she still have to pay part of the dowry? Or can she take it to court/to family and the issue be resolved without her paying part/all of the dowry?

Is there any situation where the woman can divorce without paying back anything?

Jazakallah Khair your help would be much appreciated as this answer is also for another friend.

[Zainab_M]

Walaikum Salaam brother Murteza.  From everything I have read in the Quran, there can be no pressure on the wife to pay back anything regardless of the reason of divorce unless she voluntarily gives back whatever her husband gave her as dowry which can be either in cash or kind with no fixed value or amount. 

The issue of women returning half the dowry or whatever her husband had spent on her refer to two very different situations. 

(1)   First, the wife returning half the dowry is only when divorce takes place shortly after nikah, before the consummation of the marriage.  In that case the man has the right to ask back half of the dowry which he had paid, unless the husband voluntarily decides not to take back anything which in the Quran is stated as "nearer to piety."  If the woman voluntarily decides to give him back the entire dowry, that is entirely her personal decision.  In all such cases, half of the dowry belongs to her legally .. that is, only if divorce takes place soon after marriage prior to its consummation.  Reference Verse 2:237 Surah Al-Baqrah: "If ye divorce them before ye have touched them and ye have appointed unto them a portion, then (pay the) half of that which ye appointed, unless they (the women) agree to forgo it, or he agreeth to forgo it in whose hand is the marriage tie. To forgo is nearer to piety. And forget not kindness among yourselves. Allah is Seer of what ye do."

In this respect I would also like to state the contents of the preceding Verse 2:236 which mentions that if divorce takes place soon after nikah, before the consummation of the marriage and the husband has not yet appointed a dowry for the bride, even in that case the husband must give something to his divorced wife which would serve as a compensation for divorce.   Quote Verse 2:236   "It is no sin for you if ye divorce women while yet ye have not touched them, nor appointed unto them a portion. Provide for them, the rich according to his means, and the straitened according to his means, a fair provision. (This is) a bounden duty for those who do good."


(2)    The second situation where both the husband and wife can ask for whatever they had spent on their marriage refers in Verse 60:10, quote:  "O ye who believe! When believing women come unto you as fugitives, examine them. Allah is Best Aware of their faith. Then, if ye know them for true believers, send them not back unto the disbelievers. They are not lawful for them (the disbelievers), nor are they (the disbelievers) lawful for them. And give them (the disbelievers) that which they have spent (upon them). And it is no sin for you to marry such women when ye have given them their dues. And hold not to the ties of disbelieving women; and ask for (the return of) that which ye have spent; and let them (the disbelievers) ask for that which they have spent. That is the judgment of Allah. He judgeth between you. Allah is Knower, Wise."  (60:10) Surah Al-Mumtahanah.    Please know that this verse refers to a very specific historical period during the Prophet's (pbuh) lifetime in Medinah.  After the Prophet (pbuh) began living in Medinah and was the head of the first Islamic state, many believing women of Mecca who decided to embrace Islam began leaving Mecca and coming to Medinah to escape persecution from the idolaters.  There were also some women in Medinah who decided to go back to idolatry and return to Mecca.   Surah Al-Mumtahanah mentions of those believing women who left Mecca for Medinah, that they should not be sent back to Mecca and allowed to stay in Medinah.  Muslim men in Medinah were also allowed to marry them after paying them their dowry and also paying the compensation to their families in Mecca whom they left.  Similarly those disbelieving women who wanted to return to Mecca could do so and their Muslim husbands who stayed behind in Medinah had the right to ask for the return of their dowry which they had spent on these women.   I repeat, this was a very specific situation and it's not meant to be a law in normal circumstances of divorce.    

[Zainab_M]

For more information on the Quranic ideology of dowry, you will find all the details in the following post:  Dowry - a bounden duty on every Muslim male

[MurtezaAFG]

Walaikum Salaam brother Murteza.  From everything I have read in the Quran, there can be no pressure on the wife to pay back anything regardless of the reason of divorce unless she voluntarily gives back whatever her husband gave her as dowry which can be either in cash or kind with no fixed value or amount. 

The issue of women returning half the dowry or whatever her husband had spent on her refer to two very different situations. 

(1)   First, the wife returning half the dowry is only when divorce takes place shortly after nikah, before the consummation of the marriage.  In that case the man has the right to ask back half of the dowry which he had paid, unless the husband voluntarily decides not to take back anything which in the Quran is stated as "nearer to piety."  If the woman voluntarily decides to give him back the entire dowry, that is entirely her personal decision.  In all such cases, half of the dowry belongs to her legally .. that is, only if divorce takes place soon after marriage prior to its consummation.  Reference Verse 2:237 Surah Al-Baqrah: "If ye divorce them before ye have touched them and ye have appointed unto them a portion, then (pay the) half of that which ye appointed, unless they (the women) agree to forgo it, or he agreeth to forgo it in whose hand is the marriage tie. To forgo is nearer to piety. And forget not kindness among yourselves. Allah is Seer of what ye do."

In this respect I would also like to state the contents of the preceding Verse 2:236 which mentions that if divorce takes place soon after nikah, before the consummation of the marriage and the husband has not yet appointed a dowry for the bride, even in that case the husband must give something to his divorced wife which would serve as a compensation for divorce.   Quote Verse 2:236   "It is no sin for you if ye divorce women while yet ye have not touched them, nor appointed unto them a portion. Provide for them, the rich according to his means, and the straitened according to his means, a fair provision. (This is) a bounden duty for those who do good."


(2)    The second situation where both the husband and wife can ask for whatever they had spent on their marriage refers in Verse 60:10, quote:  "O ye who believe! When believing women come unto you as fugitives, examine them. Allah is Best Aware of their faith. Then, if ye know them for true believers, send them not back unto the disbelievers. They are not lawful for them (the disbelievers), nor are they (the disbelievers) lawful for them. And give them (the disbelievers) that which they have spent (upon them). And it is no sin for you to marry such women when ye have given them their dues. And hold not to the ties of disbelieving women; and ask for (the return of) that which ye have spent; and let them (the disbelievers) ask for that which they have spent. That is the judgment of Allah. He judgeth between you. Allah is Knower, Wise."  (60:10) Surah Al-Mumtahanah.    Please know that this verse refers to a very specific historical period during the Prophet's (pbuh) lifetime in Medinah.  After the Prophet (pbuh) began living in Medinah and was the head of the first Islamic state, many believing women of Mecca who decided to embrace Islam began leaving Mecca and coming to Medinah to escape persecution from the idolaters.  There were also some women in Medinah who decided to go back to idolatry and return to Mecca.   Surah Al-Mumtahanah mentions of those believing women who left Mecca for Medinah, that they should not be sent back to Mecca and allowed to stay in Medinah.  Muslim men in Medinah were also allowed to marry them after paying them their dowry and also paying the compensation to their families in Mecca whom they left.  Similarly those disbelieving women who wanted to return to Mecca could do so and their Muslim husbands who stayed behind in Medinah had the right to ask for the return of their dowry which they had spent on these women.   I repeat, this was a very specific situation and it's not meant to be a law in normal circumstances of divorce.    

Thank you for your answer Sister.

The verse in question I'm talking about is (2:229)

Divorce must be pronounced twice and then (a woman) must be retained in honour or released in kindness. And it is not lawful for you that ye take from women aught of that which ye have given them; except (in the case) when both fear that they may not be able to keep within the limits (imposed by) Allah. And if ye fear that they may not be able to keep the limits of Allah, in that case it is no sin for either of them if the woman ransom herself. These are the limits (imposed by) Allah. Transgress them not. For whoso transgresseth Allah's limits: such are wrong-doers. (229)

I have read different translations and all of them say either "part/all" or mention that she has to pay something back, but the amount is always vague.

1. Doesn't a penny count as part  because it does not specify the minimum amount she has to give. a friend asked me about the 2nd questions case. I went on to tell her that if she was being treated poorly, she could give back a single penny to symbolically show that he was a poor husband because it technically was still "part" of the dowry (she said what about wives with NO money, I refuted by asking who can't get a single cent?" ). But I'm not sure if there is a situation where she can take it to something legal like a family (I know it is not law of the land legal, but it is still Quranic legal) or the courts and get out of it. Allah did command it so maybe he created a loophole which pretty much makes the wife free of leaving if the situation requires it.

2.What about in the case where the husband is treating the wife poorly (abusive verbally, taking away certain rights etc.) and the wife wants to divorce but the husband says no? Does she still have to pay part of the dowry? Or can she take it to court/to family and the issue be resolved without her paying part/all of the dowry?

[Zainab_M]

"And if ye fear that they may not be able to keep the limits of Allah, in that case it is no sin for either of them if the woman ransom herself."  (2:229).

Actually brother, this is not a law as such, but simply a possibility in case it cannot be avoided because of an unforeseen situation.  For example if the wife wants a divorce and the husband starts creating problems for her by making his own demands.  Obviously he should not even think of indulging in such acts.  But if he is a jerk and he does and the wife and her family perceive the scenario as getting a bit too unpleasant and she decides to make a financial deal to get over with the unpleasantness, it won't be taken as a transgression on her part in the Sight of Allah.  This is what it basically means.  Again, it's not a mandatory law but an option or a permissible step only in extraordinary or unavoidable situations and depending upon the extent to which the wife and her family consider it suitable. 

If the husband is mistreating his wife and she wants a divorce then it's her full right to acquire one.  She doesn't have to pay anything back, no question of it.  This is clearly the Quanic perspective.  The fact that the interference of man-made Shairah laws have made it different and difficult for a woman to initiate a divorce even if she's being badly treated is another issue, just the way many Shariah laws violate the Quran.  That's been an old problem since long.


P.S.   I don't know about the "penny" law brother.  Never heard of it.  I suppose it's taken from some fatwa or hadith.   

[Ruhi_Rose]

According to the Quran, the woman is never to be pressured monetarily, neither as a daughter nor as a sister nor as wife.  You'll never find that anywhere in the Quran.  Her father, brother (or brothers), or husband are the ones who must bear the responsibility of all her needs .. with whichever of these close male family members she's living.  The purpose of a woman inheriting half of her brother's share of family assets is because whatever she inherits belongs entirely to herself.  The task of taking care of her essential daily needs is upon her brother after the death of her father regardless of whatever she inherits, if by that time she's still single.  Similarly after marriage she carries no financial responsibilities.  Whatever assets she gets from her family is hers, the husband has no right to meddle into it.  The dowry during marriage and whatever else the husband gives her is hers and she isn't obligated to share them with him.  It's the same during divorce.  As described in the Quran several times, even if the marriage is annulled before consummation, the woman must receive some indemnity in the form of bonus.  If the marriage is annulled after a few years and the couple have children, no matter who initiates the divorce, the husband will have to give an allowance to his divorced wife.  The wife pays nothing.  It must also be remembered that even if the wife comes from a more wealthy family than the husband, her financial responsibilities do not increase.  The Quran does not give any such concession to the man.   Whenever a woman spends, whether out of her own money or returning a gift, has to be voluntary.  There is no Quranic law that compels her to spend her money or gifted money or any gifted assets.

The idea of females contributing financially, equally as the men is a typical western culture .. sometimes she's also required to contribute more, depending on who has a better job or larger personal assets.  Also, the notion of a woman always being the winner in a divorce and getting a big chunk of her husband's money is a western one and not quite accurate either because it's a very general view.  The woman gets substantial money after a divorce only if the husband is fairly well-to-do and has a reasonably bulky bank account.  But many don't.  Many husbands are jobless.  Many are stay-at-home spouses.  Many are doing odd jobs or very ordinary jobs and earning just enough to survive.  In all such cases, if there's a divorce, the wife with the kids usually have to apply for social welfare.  Another point within their system is that whenever a divorce takes place, the one who has more money pays to the one who has less regardless of gender.  Like everywhere else, even in the west men generally earn more (despite the hullabaloo of feminism) and have a greater capacity to make money compared to women.  But in some cases where the woman is substantially richer than her husband, a divorce would mean she has to pay to her husband and not the other way round.  An example of this was the late movie star, Elizabeth Taylor's 8th marriage to a construction worker, some 20 plus years her junior.  The guy was broke before his marriage to her.  After a few years when she divorced him, he became mini multi-millionaire. 

[MurtezaAFG]

"And if ye fear that they may not be able to keep the limits of Allah, in that case it is no sin for either of them if the woman ransom herself."  (2:229).

Actually brother, this is not a law as such, but simply a possibility in case it cannot be avoided because of an unforeseen situation.  For example if the wife wants a divorce and the husband starts creating problems for her by making his own demands.  Obviously he should not even think of indulging in such acts.  But if he is a jerk and he does and the wife and her family perceive the scenario as getting a bit too unpleasant and she decides to make a financial deal to get over with the unpleasantness, it won't be taken as a transgression on her part in the Sight of Allah.  This is what it basically means.  Again, it's not a mandatory law but an option or a permissible step only in extraordinary or unavoidable situations and depending upon the extent to which the wife and her family consider it suitable. 

If the husband is mistreating his wife and she wants a divorce then it's her full right to acquire one.  She doesn't have to pay anything back, no question of it.  This is clearly the Quanic perspective.  The fact that the interference of man-made Shairah laws have made it different and difficult for a woman to initiate a divorce even if she's being badly treated is another issue, just the way many Shariah laws violate the Quran.  That's been an old problem since long.


P.S.   I don't know about the "penny" law brother.  Never heard of it.  I suppose it's taken from some fatwa or hadith.   

1. I just wanna mention that I do not use Hadiths as tools for any judgement made regarding life choices or beliefs regarding the Quran/Allah (SWT).

What about in the Situation where the husband is being a good husband, but the wife wants to divorce him because she doesn't think she can live happy with him? What happens then in terms of dowry.

[MurtezaAFG]

According to the Quran, the woman is never to be pressured monetarily, neither as a daughter nor as a sister nor as wife.  You'll never find that anywhere in the Quran.  Her father, brother (or brothers), or husband are the ones who must bear the responsibility of all her needs .. with whichever of these close male family members she's living.  The purpose of a woman inheriting half of her brother's share of family assets is because whatever she inherits belongs entirely to herself.  The task of taking care of her essential daily needs is upon her brother after the death of her father regardless of whatever she inherits, if by that time she's still single.  Similarly after marriage she carries no financial responsibilities.  Whatever assets she gets from her family is hers, the husband has no right to meddle into it.  The dowry during marriage and whatever else the husband gives her is hers and she isn't obligated to share them with him.  It's the same during divorce.  As described in the Quran several times, even if the marriage is annulled before consummation, the woman must receive some indemnity in the form of bonus.  If the marriage is annulled after a few years and the couple have children, no matter who initiates the divorce, the husband will have to give an allowance to his divorced wife.  The wife pays nothing.  It must also be remembered that even if the wife comes from a more wealthy family than the husband, her financial responsibilities do not increase.  The Quran does not give any such concession to the man.   Whenever a woman spends, whether out of her own money or returning a gift, has to be voluntary.  There is no Quranic law that compels her to spend her money or gifted money or any gifted assets.

The idea of females contributing financially, equally as the men is a typical western culture .. sometimes she's also required to contribute more, depending on who has a better job or larger personal assets.  Also, the notion of a woman always being the winner in a divorce and getting a big chunk of her husband's money is a western one and not quite accurate either because it's a very general view.  The woman gets substantial money after a divorce only if the husband is fairly well-to-do and has a reasonably bulky bank account.  But many don't.  Many husbands are jobless.  Many are stay-at-home spouses.  Many are doing odd jobs or very ordinary jobs and earning just enough to survive.  In all such cases, if there's a divorce, the wife with the kids usually have to apply for social welfare.  Another point within their system is that whenever a divorce takes place, the one who has more money pays to the one who has less regardless of gender.  Like everywhere else, even in the west men generally earn more (despite the hullabaloo of feminism) and have a greater capacity to make money compared to women.  But in some cases where the woman is substantially richer than her husband, a divorce would mean she has to pay to her husband and not the other way round.  An example of this was the late movie star, Elizabeth Taylor's 8th marriage to a construction worker, some 20 plus years her junior.  The guy was broke before his marriage to her.  After a few years when she divorced him, he became mini multi-millionaire. 

The bonus payed to the woman for divorce before consummation is in the case of the man divorcing the woman.
But what about the case of the woman[/I] divorcing the man before consummation, and after consummation. What happens in the case that the man wants to stay married and is being a good husband, and the woman wants to divorce because she just doesn't "like him enough" and she felt this way after 3+ years.

[Zainab_M]

1. I just wanna mention that I do not use Hadiths as tools for any judgement made regarding life choices or beliefs regarding the Quran/Allah (SWT).

Ok, however I don't know anything about the "penny" law because it's not in the Quran for sure.  So obviously it's from somewhere else.  That's what I meant.

What about in the Situation where the husband is being a good husband, but the wife wants to divorce him because she doesn't think she can live happy with him? What happens then in terms of dowry.

The bonus payed to the woman for divorce before consummation is in the case of the man divorcing the woman.
But what about the case of the woman[/I] divorcing the man before consummation, and after consummation. What happens in the case that the man wants to stay married and is being a good husband, and the woman wants to divorce because she just doesn't "like him enough" and she felt this way after 3+ years.

I already touched that point.  If the wife wants to divorce the husband after consummation .. after living with him for sometime or after having kids, there is no law in the Quran that says she must return half the money or dowry even if she initiates the divorce, regardless of whether the husband is a good man or a bad man.  Monetary rules are not intertwined with reasons of divorce in the Quran.  I have not seen that anywhere in the Quran.  You can check it out for yourself too. 

Even if the wife takes the initiative to divorce him before consummation of marriage, then the husband pays her half of the appointed portion unless she voluntarily forgoes it, OR the husband voluntarily forgoes it and allows her to keep the full amount.  The Quran says, to forgo it would be better on the part of the husband. 

The verses containing these info are quoted above.

[MurtezaAFG]

1. I just wanna mention that I do not use Hadiths as tools for any judgement made regarding life choices or beliefs regarding the Quran/Allah (SWT).

Ok, however I don't know anything about the "penny" law because it's not in the Quran for sure.  So obviously it's from somewhere else.  That's what I meant.

What about in the Situation where the husband is being a good husband, but the wife wants to divorce him because she doesn't think she can live happy with him? What happens then in terms of dowry.

The bonus payed to the woman for divorce before consummation is in the case of the man divorcing the woman.
But what about the case of the woman[/I] divorcing the man before consummation, and after consummation. What happens in the case that the man wants to stay married and is being a good husband, and the woman wants to divorce because she just doesn't "like him enough" and she felt this way after 3+ years.

I already touched that point.  If the wife wants to divorce the husband after consummation .. after living with him for sometime or after having kids, there is no law in the Quran that says she must return half the money or dowry even if she initiates the divorce, regardless of whether the husband is a good man or a bad man.  Monetary rules are not intertwined with reasons of divorce in the Quran.  I have not seen that anywhere in the Quran.  You can check it out for yourself too. 

Even if the wife takes the initiative to divorce him before consummation of marriage, then the husband pays her half of the appointed portion unless she voluntarily forgoes it, OR the husband voluntarily forgoes it and allows her to keep the full amount.  The Quran says, to forgo it would be better on the part of the husband. 

The verses containing these info are quoted above.

And it is not lawful for you that ye take from women aught of that which ye have given them; except (in the case) when both fear that they may not be able to keep within the limits (imposed by) Allah. And if ye fear that they may not be able to keep the limits of Allah, in that case it is no sin for either of them if the woman ransom herself. These are the limits (imposed by) Allah. Transgress them not. For whoso transgresseth Allah's limits: such are wrong-doers. (229)

It says that it is not lawful for men to take the dowry back. It then goes on to say except in the case where both fear that they may not be able to Keep within the limits imposed by  Allah . It would make logical sense that they are referring to the limits of marriage, would it not? It keeps going on to say that in that case, it is no sin for either of them if the woman ransom herself.

It's clearly saying she has to give something in order to divorce, but what, how much and under what circumstances?

[Zainab_M]

Yes it does say that.  I already explained it to you.  Let me quote myself from one of my earlier responses here.


Quote:
"And if ye fear that they may not be able to keep the limits of Allah, in that case it is no sin for either of them if the woman ransom herself."  (2:229).


".... this is not a law as such, but simply a possibility in case it cannot be avoided because of an unforeseen situation.  For example if the wife wants a divorce and the husband starts creating problems for her by making his own demands.  Obviously he should not even think of indulging in such acts.  But if he is a jerk and he does and the wife and her family perceive the scenario as getting a bit too unpleasant and she decides to make a financial deal to get over with the unpleasantness, it won't be taken as a transgression on her part in the Sight of Allah.  This is what it basically means.  Again, it's not a mandatory law but an option or a permissible step only in extraordinary or unavoidable situations and depending upon the extent to which the wife and her family consider it suitable. "
Unquote:

Not being able to keep within the limits of Allah refers to any differences that may arise which could create problems and make the situation difficult .. in that case they can mutually make a financial deal which may require the woman to return something of what was gifted to her.  However, it's a subjective issue and such circumstances may differ in every divorce case.  Many divorces also go smoothly.  Of course the amount (if returned by the woman) isn't mentioned.  How can that be mentioned?  There is no fixed amount for a dowry or a marriage-gift to begin with.  The man gives whatever he can afford.  Similarly, in case of a divorce if there is wrangling over financial issues, it will obviously be settled in accordance with the worth of the dowry which is different in every case.   

[MurtezaAFG]

Yes it does say that.  I already explained it to you.  Let me quote myself from one of my earlier responses here.


Quote:
"And if ye fear that they may not be able to keep the limits of Allah, in that case it is no sin for either of them if the woman ransom herself."  (2:229).


".... this is not a law as such, but simply a possibility in case it cannot be avoided because of an unforeseen situation.  For example if the wife wants a divorce and the husband starts creating problems for her by making his own demands.  Obviously he should not even think of indulging in such acts.  But if he is a jerk and he does and the wife and her family perceive the scenario as getting a bit too unpleasant and she decides to make a financial deal to get over with the unpleasantness, it won't be taken as a transgression on her part in the Sight of Allah.  This is what it basically means.  Again, it's not a mandatory law but an option or a permissible step only in extraordinary or unavoidable situations and depending upon the extent to which the wife and her family consider it suitable. "
Unquote:

Not being able to keep within the limits of Allah refers to any differences that may arise which could create problems and make the situation difficult .. in that case they can mutually make a financial deal which may require the woman to return something of what was gifted to her.  However, it's a subjective issue and such circumstances may differ in every divorce case.  Many divorces also go smoothly.  Of course the amount (if returned by the woman) isn't mentioned.  How can that be mentioned?  There is no fixed amount for a dowry or a marriage-gift to begin with.  The man gives whatever he can afford.  Similarly, in case of a divorce if there is wrangling over financial issues, it will obviously be settled in accordance with the worth of the dowry which is different in every case.   

So can a woman divorce her husband for no good reason (he's being a good husband) and still keep all of her dowry? Because that sounds like a gold digger.

And I ask this because I have heard this verse interpreted this like:

"In the case of the wife choosing to end the marriage, she may return the marriage gifts to her husband. Returning the marriage gifts in this case is a fair compensation for the husband who is keen to keep his wife while she chooses to leave him. The Quran has instructed Muslim men not to take back any of the gifts they have given to their wives except in the case of the wife choosing to dissolve the marriage:

"It is not lawful for you (Men) to take back any of your gifts except when both parties fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah. There is no blame on either of them if she give something for her freedom. These are the limits ordained by Allah so do not transgress them" (Quran 2:229). "

[Zainab_M]

Salaam brother.  Along with my answer I'll also put some additional details to further clarify this aspect.   It's become lengthy but the points are very essential for proper understanding of the Quran.  So I hope you'll get the time to read it attentively.

Well yes, the basic Quranic law does clearly convey in several verses that in case of divorce (whichever spouse initiates it), the dowry is not returnable.  Verse 2:229 says in clear terms that legally the husband is not supposed to take back anything.   If we go strictly in accordance with the Quran, then the tafsir which you have quoted is partly right, not fully.  That tafsir says "The Quran has instructed Muslim men not to take back any of the gifts they have given to their wives except in the case of the wife choosing to dissolve the marriage."   Now compare this with Quranic information in Verse 2:229 and also several others like Verse 4:20-21.  You will observe that it's true men have been told categorically not to take back anything.  But does the Quran assert in similar categorical terms that the woman must return the dowry unconditionally in case of a divorce even if she initiates it?  NO, it certainly doesn't.  The woman is required to obtain half the dowry, which we have also discussed here, only in cases where the marriage is annulled prior to consummation. Even in this case the man is advised that it's "nearer to piety" if he doesn't ask for the return of half the dowry.  No other event of divorce makes it obligatory for the woman to return anything. You can scan the Quran, you won't find it.  But the Muslim jurists today have discreetly twisted many Quranic information through tafsirs (an example being the one you quoted) to make it look that it's obligatory for a woman to return the money in case she initiates the divorce.  It's the same people who have also created numerous obstacles for the woman to initiate a divorce by calling it "khula."  Some so-called Muslim countries even today don't allow women to ask for divorce if the husband says "no."  Needless to say, such laws are totally in contradiction to the Noble Quran and simply need to be tucked up in the garbage. 

Now let's take a closer look at the Quranic expression in V.2:229 - "may not be able to keep the limits of Allah"   -  What are the limits of Allah?  The limits of Allah include His standard law as He has stated, which is, men are not allowed to take back anything, it's his duty to support the dependent children after divorce and at the same time the divorced wife must not pressure the husband beyond his means.  If things go this way, then both man and woman are keeping within the limits prescribed by Allah.  However, out of the ordinary incidents often arise.  In Verse 2:229 the reference is to the man, if he doesn't keep within the limits (which can be for a number of reasons) then the woman can make a deal and return something.  But it's an option for her and not an obligation as it is upon the man to refrain from asking anything back. This is a situation where both can bargain - the woman may want to give as less as possible and the man will try to get as much as possible.  So they strike a deal in between.  However, the man should only make such demands if he is financially hard pressed and really needs the money.  Otherwise he will be violating the standard law of Allah by not keeping within the limits prescribed by Him which says not to ask for the return of the dowry. 

As you would know, dowry has no fixed amounts.  Men give whatever they can afford - the rich, the average and the poor - all according to their respective means.  Similarly, if in case of divorce, a man is genuinely in need of some money and wants a portion of the dowry back .. the portion returned will depend upon the resources of the woman.  In some cases the woman might be able to return half or more, voluntarily of course.  But in some cases much less.  What if the woman has spent all her dowry money and she doesn't have the financial means and no savings to pay back anything?  In that case it goes without saying that the man gets nothing even if he is in need and neither is this a violation on the part of the woman because it's not a sin for a woman to spend out of her dowry and neither is the dowry supposed to be saved up in anticipation of a future divorce.   It's also for these reasons that no amounts nor percentages are mentioned in the Quran for the simple reason that it depends entirely upon the person's financial resources.  It's also for similar reasons that the Quran does not mention the amount of Zakat to be paid even though charity is obligatory on every believer.  The Zakat amount of 2.5% has been fixed by Hadith and Shariah.  The Noble Quran has kept it open because  each individual is supposed to pay according to their personal resources and personal resources differ from individual to individual.

If one is a "gold digger" they will have to answer to God Almighty when they stand before Him.  In the Noble Quran, such laws are made on pure trust .. similar to the law of Li'an (which I suppose you know), and betrayal of trust will involve retribution in the Hereafter.   Not only women, but men are just as capable of being greedy.  For example, a man can demand the return of dowry only to fill his pockets or only out of spite even if he is financially well off and doesn't need it.  He can even provide false evidence in court to show he is financially broke which might require the woman to give him back a substantial slice of the dowry by getting fooled even if she's much more needy than him.  Such things do happen.  This would also be categorized as betrayal of trust for which the man will be answerable in the Hereafter.

Last but not least, there is really no such thing as divorcing one's spouse (wife or husband) for "no good reason."  This is the way it appears to outsiders but there's always a reason which is often not known to outsiders or sometimes it might not appear relevant to outsiders.  But that's not for them to judge.  An 'irrelevant' reason might be vital for a spouse.  After all, no one wants a divorce for fun.  Even if any one of the spouses has fallen out of love with the other and wants a divorce, it's a valid reason for them because it's certainly not a healthy practice to drag on with a loveless or unhappy marriage which can have a lot of negative & far-reaching consequences on the entire household.  It is for these reasons that the Noble Quran does not take into account the reason for divorce.  Only Allah is the best Judge of what might be a good reason or a bad reason for a divorce.

[MurtezaAFG]

Salaam brother.  Along with my answer I'll also put some additional details to further clarify this aspect.   It's become lengthy but the points are very essential for proper understanding of the Quran.  So I hope you'll get the time to read it attentively.


Now let's take a closer look at the Quranic expression in V.2:229 - "may not be able to keep the limits of Allah"   

You are quoting out of context here. It says "It is not lawful for you (Men) to take back any of your gifts except when both parties fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah. There is no blame on either of them if she give something for her freedom. These are the limits ordained by Allah so do not transgress them" (Quran 2:229). "

This includes limits ordained for women; to be loyal to their husbands.
Once again, what about the situation where the husband is doing his part and the women has no desire to continue the relationship for no good reason other than being bored or what have you (this happens a lot). Are you suggesting that the woman can just up and leave and take everything? And on top of that the man has to support her for her unsympathetic act? In this situation the man suffers for no good reason other than the woman's selfish desires.

-  What are the limits of Allah?  The limits of Allah include His standard law as He has stated, which is, men are not allowed to take back anything, it's his duty to support the dependent children after divorce and at the same time the divorced wife must not pressure the husband beyond his means.  If things go this way, then both man and woman are keeping within the limits prescribed by Allah.  However, out of the ordinary incidents often arise.  In Verse 2:229 the reference is to the man,

Why does it say "both parties" then if it only refers to the man?

if he doesn't keep within the limits (which can be for a number of reasons) then the woman can make a deal and return something.  But it's an option for her and not an obligation as it is upon the man to refrain from asking anything back. This is a situation where both can bargain - the woman may want to give as less as possible and the man will try to get as much as possible.  So they strike a deal in between.  However, the man should only make such demands if he is financially hard pressed and really needs the money.

What about if the woman married him for the dowry? This case happens often.
The situation you gave is when the man is wronging the woman.
What about the other way around?

  Otherwise he will be violating the standard law of Allah by not keeping within the limits prescribed by Him which says not to ask for the return of the dowry. 

As you would know, dowry has no fixed amounts.  Men give whatever they can afford - the rich, the average and the poor - all according to their respective means.  Similarly, if in case of divorce, a man is genuinely in need of some money and wants a portion of the dowry back .. the portion returned will depend upon the resources of the woman.  In some cases the woman might be able to return half or more, voluntarily of course.  But in some cases much less.  What if the woman has spent all her dowry money and she doesn't have the financial means and no savings to pay back anything?  In that case it goes without saying that the man gets nothing even if he is in need and neither is this a violation on the part of the woman because it's not a sin for a woman to spend out of her dowry and neither is the dowry supposed to be saved up in anticipation of a future divorce.   It's also for these reasons that no amounts nor percentages are mentioned in the Quran for the simple reason that it depends entirely upon the person's financial resources.  It's also for similar reasons that the Quran does not mention the amount of Zakat to be paid even though charity is obligatory on every believer.  The Zakat amount of 2.5% has been fixed by Hadith and Shariah.  The Noble Quran has kept it open because  each individual is supposed to pay according to their personal resources and personal resources differ from individual to individual.

Dowry is not just money/gold. It could be property too. Anything of value really.
It's really hard to believe that a woman could not get anything of value, either from a random person, from family, or find one etc. (this is in the case of the woman wanting to divorce the man for no good reason. In a different situation where the husband is the one committing wrong, and he doesn't let her out of the house, that is a clear violation and something separate).

If one is a "gold digger" they will have to answer to God Almighty when they stand before Him.  In the Noble Quran, such laws are made on pure trust .. similar to the law of Li'an (which I suppose you know), and betrayal of trust will involve retribution in the Hereafter.   Not only women, but men are just as capable of being greedy.  For example, a man can demand the return of dowry only to fill his pockets or only out of spite even if he is financially well off and doesn't need it.

Logically he can't. Any Muslim would easily testify against that. The verses are clear about taking it back by force or pressure etc.

  He can even provide false evidence in court to show he is financially broke which might require the woman to give him back a substantial slice of the dowry by getting fooled even if she's much more needy than him.  Such things do happen.  This would also be categorized as betrayal of trust for which the man will be answerable in the Hereafter.

I never said anything about being financially unstable or anything of that sort. This is going off on a very big tangent.

Last but not least, there is really no such thing as divorcing one's spouse (wife or husband) for "no good reason."  This is the way it appears to outsiders but there's always a reason which is often not known to outsiders or sometimes it might not appear relevant to outsiders.  But that's not for them to judge.  An 'irrelevant' reason might be vital for a spouse.  After all, no one wants a divorce for fun.  Even if any one of the spouses has fallen out of love with the other and wants a divorce, it's a valid reason for them because it's certainly not a healthy practice to drag on with a loveless or unhappy marriage which can have a lot of negative & far-reaching consequences on the entire household.  It is for these reasons that the Noble Quran does not take into account the reason for divorce.  Only Allah is the best Judge of what might be a good reason or a bad reason for a divorce. [/size][/font]

Anyway, jazakallah khair sister for trying to answer my question.
You tried your best.

[Zainab_M]

As-Salaam Alaikum.

You are quoting out of context here. It says "It is not lawful for you (Men) to take back any of your gifts except when both parties fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah. There is no blame on either of them if she give something for her freedom. These are the limits ordained by Allah so do not transgress them" (Quran 2:229). "

This includes limits ordained for women; to be loyal to their husbands.
Once again, what about the situation where the husband is doing his part and the women has no desire to continue the relationship for no good reason other than being bored or what have you (this happens a lot). Are you suggesting that the woman can just up and leave and take everything? And on top of that the man has to support her for her unsympathetic act? In this situation the man suffers for no good reason other than the woman's selfish desires.

I think there is a serious communication gap here.  Or most likely you miss out on sentences while reading and hence end up repeating an issue again and again.

I already mentioned in the first paragraph on my previous response that I'll be including some additional details to further clarify this aspect.  Thus, I'm not quoting out of context.   Rather I am taking everything into context and  looking at the issue in a much wider perspective, starting from the verse under discussion and the possibilities it may cover.

I did not say that the Quranic reference is only to the man.  But in V.2:229 it is.  You only need to analyze it calmly and logically.  Obviously a marriage is between two people, a man and a woman, therefore we read the collective reference "they."  After making it clear that it is not lawful for the man to take back anything (which is definitely the standard Quranic law in such a situation and must be given first priority), the Quran further states that in case they aren't able to keep within prescribed limits, then the woman can ransom herself, meaning giving back a portion of the money or whatever assets given to her by him.   I mentioned that THIS specific concession is referred to the man because it's obvious, otherwise  if the man decides to stay within the prescribed limits and doesn't ask for the return of the dowry, then why on earth would the woman need to make a decision for returning anything?  Use your common sense please.  Hence, in case the man acts nasty or is genuinely needy of money, then the woman can decide upon a monetary deal which would not be a sin for either of them legally.  If the man is trying to grab it out of greed pretending to be needy, even then the woman might decide to give something back.  However, Allah knows the secrets of everyone's hearts and He will eventually take every such person to task, male or female.  

Answering your question if the  husband is a good man and the woman wants a divorce, you have asked this at least 3 times and I've answered it the same number of times.    Especially in my last post I have explained it very clearly.  The Quran is NOT fixated on reasons for divorce and therefore there are no specific verses which force a woman to return the dowry simply because you or me might think the divorce is not for a "good reason."  Why don't you read  the Quran yourself to check it?  If the woman is being unjust by divorcing her husband for no good reason, it is for Allah to judge and deal with her on the Day of Judgment or maybe even in this world.  But I repeat, there are no laws related to reasons for divorce which would compel a woman to pay anything.  If any such law exists in Shariah, I don't know and neither am I interested.  Thus, I cannot tell you something which is NOT contained in the Quran simply because it might conform with your line of thoughts.   We go strictly according to the Quran only.

"What about if the woman married him for the dowry? This case happens often.
The situation you gave is when the man is wronging the woman.
What about the other way around?"

If you can find any Quranic Verses which confirms that a woman or man can be punished on suspicions of being a gold digger then quote it. 

Let's not get into all that feminist crap of a 'man woman' argument.   That is the last thing we're focused upon.

"Dowry is not just money/gold. It could be property too. Anything of value really.
It's really hard to believe that a woman could not get anything of value, either from a random person, from family, or find one etc. (this is in the case of the woman wanting to divorce the man for no good reason. In a different situation where the husband is the one committing wrong, and he doesn't let her out of the house, that is a clear violation and something separate)."

Yes of course dowry can be cash or kind or both and it can be worth any amount.  It's a very subjective issue.  If it annoys you to think that a woman can be greedy and marry & divorce for the sake of a big dowry without any punishable laws from the Quran, then that's a different issue.  But the argument is the same which I have repeated earlier.  The Quran has not put forth any specific or official or legal laws for gold diggers.  Therefore I cannot make up stories on my own like the Shariah guys do.   Allah Almighy is the All-Knower and He is very capable of dispensing justice.  There are certain things which He expects us to follow on trust and leave the judgment to Him.

"Logically he can't. Any Muslim would easily testify against that. The verses are clear about taking it back by force or pressure etc."

Whether or not he can logically dupe the law at court depends upon the case.  However, practically it is possible for a man to come up with any number of phoney reasons to demand back the dowry or a part of it .. and in the so-called Muslim world this is a very, very common issue.   In countries like Pakistan, India and Bangladesh, the so-called Muslims have gone so far in violating the Quran that the Quranic law has been almost completely reversed.  The dowry (cash & kind) is given by the woman.   As a formality, the man fixes only a certain amount of money called "mehr"  which he is supposed to pay to the wife in case of a divorce.  In almost 100% of cases, the dowry given by the woman is NEVER returned.  In 90% of the cases, the man pays NO 'mehr.'  Wallahi !!  Such irregularities are subjective and endless.   But our forum only touches Quranic issues, not the endless freaky unpleasantness, whether it comes from the man or the woman.

"I never said anything about being financially unstable or anything of that sort. This is going off on a very big tangent."

I know you didn't ask.    But this topic involves finances, and like I said I'm explaining on a slightly broader perspective with the intention of helping you better for the simple reason that, as I observe, your ability to grasp an issue is profoundly tangent to begin with. 

"Anyway, jazakallah khair sister for trying to answer my question.
You tried your best."

JazekAllah khair and thank you too.

Of course, when it involves the Quran, my team and I at MV leave no stone unturned. We always try our very best. Alhumdulilah. And you will never find us overstepping the Quranic Verses by making up our own tales and stamping them as 'laws.'  For that, you will have to consult the Hadith guys. 

May Allah Almighty accept our efforts to spread the truth of His Message.  We are self-educated believers of modest resources, not the ones who spend thousands of $$$$ to acquire diplomas from Islamic universities to seek a load of extra-Quranic information and a cult-like following. 


Please note:  I am locking this thread in accordance with point No.11 of our Forum Rules as every factor in conformity with Quranic information on this topic has been discussed and stated from our side.  There is no use repeating the same information over and over again and neither will we endorse any issue put forth by a questioner that is not warranted in the Quran.  We neither have the time nor the inclination for that and it isn't productive for our guest readers either.  Thanks again for your interest.