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Quran does NOT say earth is flat: Answering-Islam slandering V.18:86 & 18:90


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Author Topic: Quran does NOT say earth is flat: Answering-Islam slandering V.18:86 & 18:90  (Read 668 times)
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« on: March 24, 2015, 01:38:36 am »

As-Salam Alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh

As the entire world knows, Islamophobes and hate-mongers of Answering-Islam have come up with tons of utterly ridiculous criticisms of the Noble Quran which have only resulted in exposing the very blurry nature of their own vision.  And this criticism of theirs which I'm discussing now surely takes the cake in its level of senselessness - a desperate fault-finding attempt that has neither head nor tail!

Let me mention at the start that the sole motive of Answering-Islam for hankering after this bizarre criticism is their struggle to claim that according to the Quran the earth is flat.  And since the Quran does not convey any such notions, Answering-Islam's criticism as ended up as a befuddled clump of diatribe and their self-made grammatical points to prove that the Quran refers to a flat earth goes against their own delusive arguments.

To make it easier for our readers, I will quote the different bits of criticism from  Answering-Islam and respond to each bit separately.

Quoting the critics of Answering-Islam:

Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.
Qur'an 18:86

Till, when he reached the rising-place of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter therefrom.
Qur'an 18:90

About the above verses the critic says: "The Qur'an assumes a flat earth which has physical places into which the sun sets and rises from. Since the earth is a rotating sphere, the sun does not set in any particular place and you can never travel to "the spot" where the sun sets nor a place where it rises; the sun appears to set or rise on the horizon no matter where you are on the planet. In these verses, the author propagates a popular legend from the 7th century of a man named Dhu'l-Qarnayn who visits the places where the sun sets and rises; here he finds the sun going down into a muddy spring and later rising on a tribe with no coverings.   Some Muslim Apologists have come up with creative interpretations of these verses to say that Dhu'l-Qrnayn only traveled until he reached "the west" or to a spot "at the time" when the sun set and not the "place" where the sun set. Unfortunately, these alternative interpretations are severely undermined by the context and Arabic words used in these verses, which instead point to a physical location."


Unquoting them:

First, I would like to post my own choice of translations of the portions of Verses 18:86 and 18:90 on focus for this discussion.  The following translations of the Verses are taken from Corpus Quran (word by word) which is the most accurate institution for Arabic translation of Quranic grammar.

"Until, when he reached (the) setting place (of) the sun he found it setting in a spring (of) dark mud."  18:86. Noble Quran.

"Until, when he reached the rising place of the sun and he found it rising on a community not We made for them against it against it any shelter."    18:90.  Noble Quran.


The motive for Answering-Islam to pretend having gotten the idea that the Quran says the earth is flat is their intentional misunderstanding of the Quranic lines "found it setting in a spring of dark mud" as in Verse 18:86 and "found it rising on a community not We made for them against it against it any shelter" as in Verse 18:90.  The Verses are so very straightforward, clear and plain to understand that I feel I'm wasting my time explaining something as elementary as this.  The above quoted lines of Ayats 18:86 and 18:90 are simply defining the places to the East and the West of the globe where Dhul-e-Qurneyn traveled.  One part of the world where he went, which was on the western side of the globe, looked marshy or muddy (as described in V.18:86).  The other part of the world he visited, which was on the eastern side of the globe, consisted of a community that had no shelter (as described in V.18:90). This might mean poverty was rife in that community where the people were shelterless with no proper homes. Or, it may allude that the community was unprotected against the danger of attacks by invaders.  The final interpretation rests only upon Allah The Almighty.

The simple reason why the Quran uses the expressions, rising and setting places of the sun, is because Verses 18:86 and 18:90 are narrating the travels of a man to specific lands within the globe.  If the mention of the west and east concerning the globe is generalized, then the terms "maghrib and mashriq" convey the universalized elucidation they are required to.  E.g. "Unto Allah belong the East and the West, and whithersoever ye turn, there is Allah's Countenance."  (2:115).  Every expression in the Quran is composed in accordance to the context of the Verse so that it fits in lucidly and with cogency.  Instead of perceiving a vivid verse with rationale, Answering-Islam has made it senselessly labyrinthine with fabricated rules of grammar. 

It's as easy as that.  But Answering-Islam has purposely ignored the Quranic style of expression and assumed that Verse 18:86 refers to the sun diving inside the mud.  And just as foolishly these critics have assumed that Verse 18:90 refers to the sun physically popping up from the land of the community with no shelter.  There ought to be a limit to Answering-Islam's stupidity.

Neck and neck with their idiocy, goes their cunning. If you read their criticism quoted above, you will find that these critics have already built their defense by rejecting the truth so that it cannot be taken as a response to their meaningless argument.  Here's what I mean.  Using their standard, tape-recorded term, "apologist," they have claimed (re-quote): "Some Muslim Apologists have come up with creative interpretations of these verses to say that Dhu'l-Qrnayn only traveled until he reached "the west" or to a spot "at the time" when the sun set and not the "place" where the sun set. Unfortunately, these alternative interpretations are severely undermined by the context and Arabic words used in these verses, which instead point to a physical location."  Well, as I've already analyzed the matter emphatically, it's a very simple issue.   Verses 18:86 and 18:90 are merely mentioning the places where Dhul-e-Qurneyn traveled (in the western and eastern parts of the world) with brief descriptions of those places.  There's absolutely nothing to apologize in explaining something as uncomplicated as this.  The fact that Answering-Islam's deception has made it complicated is pathetic.  But there's NOTHING to be apologetic about for any intelligent reader of the Quran.  That's confirmed.

Coming to the final part of Answering-Islam's prattling criticism, re-quote:  "Unfortunately, these alternative interpretations are severely undermined by the context and Arabic words used in these verses, which instead point to a physical location."  The Verses have been needlessly misunderstood and misinterpreted by the critics themselves into thinking it's a fixed and physical place.  Neither the rules of Arabic grammar nor the Quranic Arabic carry any such connotations nor linguistic regulations.  We will discuss the grammatical aspect in greater detail in a while as you read ahead.  The critics claim the Quran "assumes a flat earth," yet the contents of the Verses indicate  nothing of such an assumption, not even a hint.  On the contrary Verses 18:86 and 18:90 are effortlessly easy to grasp with no mincing of words describing Dhul-e-Qurneyn traveling to the western and eastern parts of the globe, comprising of a marshy land and a populace without shelter, respectively. 

The critics of Answering-Islam need to explain why they have judgmentally jumped to a thoroughly unsupportive conclusion.  The grammatical issue picked by them is no reason for such an assumption at all.  Other than that they have no excuse for the defamation.  The age-old goal of Answering-Islam has been to malign and slander the Quran.  That's their secret cause of fierce hostilities with a barrage of substandard misinterpretations which they are themselves ashamed to acknowledge.

Quoting further the critics of Answering-Islam:

It gets even worse when we look at 18:90. Al matliAA means “the rising place” or “the rising time” (of the sun) and is the first word in the phrase matliAAa alshshamsi in 18:90. MatliAA, with or without alshshams, is not used to mean east anywhere else in the Qur’an, nor anywhere in the hadith. The verb talaAAa (“it rises”), from which it is derived, is not used in this connection either.  If verse 18:90 was about the east, then al mashriq or al sharq would likely have been used, as is always the case elsewhere when the Qur’an mentions the east.

Unquoting them:

Okay, so the critics of Answering-Islam are making their own rules which exist nowhere in the Arabic language nor in the Noble Quran.  Next step, they are presuming that since the Quran uses "mashriq" to denote east in some other verses so it cannot use a slightly different expression such as maṭliʿa l-shamsi which means (the) rising place (of) the sun to denote mashriq or the east as in Verse 18:90. 

It's Answering-Islam that makes it far, far worse.  When you refer to a spot on the globe as matli a 1-shamsi or the rising place of the sun, what would any sane and educated person understand from that?  Does the expression sound like referring to the 'east' or does it sound like a reference to a "flat earth" as being assumed by Answering-islam?   Me, and all normal, intelligent and literate persons who have read the Quran have understood this expression as "east" or "mashriq."  But because Answering-Islam is obsessed with claiming that the Quran portrays the earth to be "flat," so it has cooked up this hoax  about a phoney grammatical rule which is no part of the Arabic language.  Neither does the use of the expression matli a l-shamsi suppose to denote anything other than the 'east' or mashriq.  Please note:  There is NO word nor any phrase in Arabic grammar that characterizes the sun as a physical object popping up and down on a flat land like a bouncing ball.  The Answering-Islam gang is struggling to convey the impression that as an official rule of grammar, the expressions "setting and rising places of the sun" are embedded in the concept of a flat earth.  Never ever heard nor read of such an absurdity!  Answering-Islam is not only slandering the Noble Quran but is also muckraking Arabic grammar.

Also make note of the gang's following words:  "is not used to mean east anywhere else in the Qur’an, nor anywhere in the hadith."  These people do not even have the remotest idea of the basic fact that the quality & style of the language of the Quran and Hadith are poles apart.  I mean the original Arabic of the Quran compared to the Hadith.  This shouldn't surprise anyone with an iota of brain.  The Quran consists of pure Divine Words while the Hadith carries the words of the clerical crooks similar to the ones who have scribbled those tons of versions they call "bible" by altering the original from cover to cover. 

Quoting again the critics of Answering-Islam:

alshshams means “the sun”, and the -i suffix (an Arabic kasarh) in 18:86 and 18:90 is for the genitive case, which indicates possession (“of the sun”). When we look at how maghrib is used elsewhere in the Qur’an to mean west (see list above), we see that it is always used as a stand-alone word without alshshams, in contrast to 18:86. Why is alshshamsi added in 18:86 when it is not in the other instances if not to emphasize a literal meaning? Indeed, alshshams is not even used with maghrib when it means the west anywhere in the hadith.

Lane’s Lexicon of classical Arabic, long regarded as authoritative and drawing on many classical Arabic dictionaries and sources, says that al maghrib can signify the west, and also the time of sunset, but originally signified the place (or point) of sunset, which it says is the meaning when alshshamsi is added. Indeed, this is what these words are used to mean elsewhere, as we shall see.


Unquoting them:

Reading the above, a typical example of a confused and calculating storm in a teacup, Answering-Islam has made the same accusation concerning Verse 18:86 which is plain and clear referring to the west or maghriba as the setting place of the sun.  Quoting Verse 18:86 in Arabic:  idhā balagha maghriba l-shamsi which means "when he reached (the) setting place (of) the sun," .......  In a nutshell, the objection of these critics is based on the use of the Quranic expression "maghriba l-shamsi" or setting place (of) the sun instead of maghrib or west.  Needless to say, it's a ridiculously discrepant and futile objection.  And that's not the end of their mindless story.  The critics further imply that when the term al-shamsi is added to al-maghrib, it literally means the place or point of sunset according to "Lane Lexicon of classical Arabic."   Well yes, and also in the Quran it is meant to literally mean that .. which literally refers to the western part of the planet.  Lane Lexicon is not crazy to illustrate this aspect as a physical sun setting atop a piece of land.  And of course the Noble Quran refers to NO such phenomenon, not in Verse 18:86 nor in 18:90 nor anywhere throughout its 6,000 plus Verses.  But Answering-Islam is hellbent of twisting its criticism to claim that in Verses 18:86 and 18:90 the Quran refers to the sun coming up and then going down by physically touching the ground. They have apparently grabbed this idea from some of the versions of the altered man-written Bibles which have claimed the earth of be flat in several older versions.  It's also a repetitive strategy of Answering-Islam to pick tales and myths from the altered Old & New Testaments and dump them on the Quran as ammunition for their criticism.

This is about the most absurd condemnation in the history of criticism and surely the most ridiculous attempt to bash the infallible Divine Literature.

Shame on those feral creatures cavorting in the depth of a fetid cesspool called Wiki & Answering-Islam.
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« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2015, 03:34:04 am »

Wa'salam.   You hit the nail on the head brother.  Perfect rejoinder, and rightly assessed that Answering-Islam's secret objective is to falsely accuse the Quran with the claim that it says earth is flat.  It's actually the altered bibles that say earth is flat in several of its hundreds of versions.  To conceal this huge embarrassment, Answering-Islam picks "the earth is flat" stories from those shitty biblical narratives and labels it on the Quran. 

It goes without saying that these sort of tantrums by Answering-Islam is the result of their own shame and embarrassment on the mind blowing absurdities within the man written bibles.  Versions of the altered bibles claim the earth is flat, that it has four corners, it has edges and closest it comes to 'reality' is to claim that earth is a flat circle .. like a disc.  Whichever Catholic, Protestant or Jewish priest/bishop/rabbi wrote this obviously didn't know the difference between a disc and a sphere.   

A certain version of the altered bible titled Revelation and in it some verse numbered 7.1 talks of "four angels standing at four corners of the earth."  Here it is:  "After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back uthe four winds of the earth, vthat no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree"  It's the Hadith standard of bullshit.  It's not of a poetic genre either, it's plain crap.   Answering-Islam keeps labeling the amazing Quranic facts that tally with so many modern research as "apologist" talk.  And you know what the altered bible followers say about Revelation 7.1 and several other other shitty information?  They say it's a "reference is to the cardinal directions: north, south, east, and west."  But how can a spherical earth have "corners" is something they never explain.  If these aren't the REAL apologists then what are they?

Moreover, the concept of a very flat earth has also been a part of the Buddhist religion since ancient times until now. Now they feel ashamed to talk about it, so the absurdity is covered up by their silence and all the disgusting propaganda in support of them by the West.

Thanks br. TS.  InshAllah, we'll respond to more of their lies gradually.
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« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2015, 03:48:28 am »

Walaikum As-Salaam br. TS.  I very much like this rational and upfront piece.

With that sort of argument Answering-Islam must also denounce all literary and intellectual works including English literature where prose, plays and poems often have metaphorical allusions and ornate written style. 

But why go that far?  With Answering-Islam's type of arguments, today we should not be using the very common English expressions "sunset" and "sunrise" which even scientists, astronomers and all professionals use while speaking and writing in the modern world.  Wouldn't a literal analysis bring out a discrepancy?  After all, the sun doesn't spin nor rotate.  Therefor practically it neither sets nor rises.  So, should it be replaced with something like "earth spin to light" and "earth spin to darkness?"  Intellectually it would sound pretty uncouth.  Every language has its own style, eloquence and injunctions that are meant to enhance its essence and highlight its denotation.  The problem lies with those who are unable to follow the linguistic edicts of the language they read.  Still more unfortunate, it's not always a blunder.  It's often an agenda.
 
Not that the Quranic Verses 18:86 and 18:90 contain anything metaphorical or fanciful linguistically that might be unrealistic or hard for a reader to follow.  Not at all.  It's Answering-Islam's combination of illiteracy plus an unethical / corrupted mindset that's putting the human race to shame.   

Sister Heba, yes, those couple a bits from the altered bibles you quoted is the tip of the iceberg.  It's peppered with stuff even far more absurd. Particularly if you read the Talmud (Jewish hadith), it goes beyond calling humans grasshoppers and locusts.  It literally puts humans at par with feces and urine.
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« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2015, 03:56:06 am »

Buggers!  This is got to be bloody-mindedness.  No one, unless seriously autistic or retarded, would not be able to understand something articulated and verbally illustrated as clearly Verses 18:86 and 90.  Such accusations are intentional moves on the part of these sick rogues of Answering-Islam.  How the wretched beasts denigrate their own selves!
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« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2015, 03:59:47 am »

Tricksters among the Christians who think altered bibles are very modern started a gimmick claiming bible version Isaiah 40:22 says earth is "round."  When inquisitive minds read Isaiah 40:22, here's what it said:  "[It is] he that sitteth above the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in."  Apart from the fact that it's totally senseless, it doesn't say the earth is "round" nor spherical as claimed.  It says earth is a "circle."  They call this version of Isaiah the American Standard Version or ASV.  Then, to avoid embarrassment, this version was edited and called Bible in Basic English or BBE which read the same Isaiah verse as "It is he who is seated over the arch of the earth, and the people in it are as small as locusts; by him the heavens are stretched out like an arch, and made ready like a tent for a living-place." They changed the word "circle" to "arch"  Grin And humans have been changed from grasshoppers to locusts    Cheesy   If you visit this link you will find at least 20 plus versions of the same verse with minor editions, additions and substractions of words.   Weird folks who play real bad games.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/isaiah/40-22-compare.html
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« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2015, 04:02:22 am »

ROFL  Grin Grin    This is what I referred to.  The mannerism and characteristics are a carbon copy of the hadith types.
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« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2015, 04:18:47 am »

Woa!  altered bibblioes Smiley    exactly like the hadith, as you would find a certain hadith compiled by 4 compilers and forged by half a dozen narrators with varying words and ideas in each.

It's important to add that the AI thugs adopt the tactic playing the language card to attack the Quran, and to distract and win over vulnerable minds, portraying the Quran carries literal meanings of its verses.  I don't know how much of such an attitude is the AI gang's obduracy and how much is mischief. Apparently 50/50.
 
The undeniable fact any reader of the Quran would know is that the Quran consists of connotations of the truth along with the allegorical style in many verses.  This aspect has been confirmed by the Quran itself.  "He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed"  (3:7).  SubhanAllah, who else can be so beautifully articulate other than the The Almighty, The Greatest.   Of course there are many direct verses as well ("the substance of the Book" as He states) pertaining to community laws & infrastructure and ethics.  But several historical narrations have an allegorical style, some are also marvelously poetic with a rhythm for greater emphasis on important commandments.  That's why we say the Noble Quran is meant for intelligent people, perceptive people, not for cobblers like the AI party.   While little knowledge is a dangerous thing, it's far worse with AI.  Their ZERO knowledge can be a horrendous thing.




But why go that far?  With Answering-Islam's type of arguments, today we should not be using the very common English expressions "sunset" and "sunrise" which even scientists, astronomers and all professionals use while speaking and writing in the modern world.  Wouldn't a literal analysis bring out a discrepancy?  After all, the sun doesn't spin nor rotate.  Therefor practically it neither sets nor rises.  So, should it be replaced with something like "earth spin to light" and "earth spin to darkness?"  Intellectually it would sound pretty uncouth.  Every language has its own style, eloquence and injunctions that are meant to enhance its essence and highlight its denotation.  The problem lies with those who are unable to follow the linguistic edicts of the language they read.  Still more unfortunate, it's not always a blunder.  It's often an agenda

That's an excellent point Sister Zeynab.  The expressions are so common, used by everyone, and I doubt if there's a single person who doesn't know that it's the movement of the earth that causes sunrise and sunset. The AI gang should be asked what they would call the use of these expressions or must the English language give up it's style because there are too many unschooled and nescient folks like AI cobblers?


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« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2015, 04:28:44 am »

Many thanks Sister Ruhi.  You have enlightened this thread with a still more important point, that is, Verse 3:7.  That's exactly the aspect which these malicious critics forget and consequently embark upon mud slinging and badmouthing.
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