Registration of new members is currently closed. Guestbook opened for now.  Guests who have questions may post at our guestbook.  No lengthy debates please. Kindly note: MV is a place for serious learning through mutual consultation where we have zero tolerance for trouble-makers, narcissists and needless disputants. We simply stand for what is compatible with the Noble Quran regardless of titles such as "traditionalism" or "modernism." We have the right to our opinion just as you have the right to yours. All disagreements must be left at that. Final Judgement belongs to The Almighty.
MUSLIM VILLA - QURAN ONLY
March 29, 2024, 10:32:25 am
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home Help Search Arcade Gallery Links Staff List Calendar Login Register  

Pharaoh's drowning in the sea and preservation

+-
Shoutbox
November 01, 2023, 03:44:32 pm Zainab_M: Allahhuma ameen .. ameen.
November 01, 2023, 03:43:43 pm Ruhi_Rose: Yes .. making lots of dua everyday ..... watching those real life video clips, my face feels wet with tears all the time.  May ALLAH grant the best to these wonderful, brave & steadfast martyrs,  Ameen ya Allah.
November 01, 2023, 03:38:26 pm Zainab_M: Keep praying, praying a lot for Gaza. It's worse than a prison .. it's a concentration camp.  Children as young as 10 or 11 are having to care for their younger siblings ages 2, 3 and 4 becoz many have lost both parents.  It's a very, very, very tearful situation there.
October 26, 2023, 03:40:19 pm N. Truth Seeker: Don't forget to look up MV Blog Zainab's Lounge for our Gaza updates.
October 20, 2023, 04:24:44 pm Zainab_M: Right sister Heba.  Gaza hospital bombing has the fingerprints of Israel all over it.  For Israel this is no big crime.  They have done this and much worse many times in the past and intend to do the same and worse many more times in near future.
October 20, 2023, 04:20:20 pm Heba E. Husseyn: Catching Zionist lies isn't hard. Soon after Gaza hospital bombing killing and maiming hundreds, Israel was quick to accuse Islamic Jihad of a misfired rocket.  That didn't sound plausible because IJ does not have such sophisticated bombing devices.  Zionist lie was fully exposed when anglican archbishop of Jerusalem,Hosam Naoum,  said today that 3 or 4 days prior to boming Israel had warned Gaza hospital to evacuate. Yet CIA claims in its flawed analysis that the rocket did not come from Israel.  But conveniently does not explain how Israel could have known 4 days earlier that a "misfired" rocket from IJ was coming.  Yet on the basis of this flawed & bias analysis of CIA, Biden is comforting Israel he believes Israel didn't do that war crimes bombing.
July 29, 2023, 03:02:07 am Zainab_M: Yesterday was Ashura, Muharram 10, 1444 (July 27, 2023).  Read about this very tragic day and details of the world's greatest 7th century revolutionary: WHO WAS HUSSEIN.
June 28, 2023, 09:48:39 am Zainab_M: Walaikum As Salaam.  This was the first Hajj open to all after the pandemic. It was attended by 2.6 million Muslims.
View Shout History
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Send this topic  |  Print  
Author Topic: Pharaoh's drowning in the sea and preservation  (Read 1573 times)
0 Members and 22 Guests are viewing this topic.
N. Truth Seeker
Quiet guy technology nerd | TEAM MUSLIM VILLA
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4347



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« on: April 24, 2015, 10:08:47 pm »

 BismEm

"And We brought the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh with his hosts pursued them in rebellion and transgression, till, when the (fate of) drowning overtook him, he exclaimed: I believe that there is no God save Him in Whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who surrender (unto Him).  10:90.

What! Now! When hitherto thou hast rebelled and been of the wrong-doers ? 10:91.

But this day We save thee in thy body that thou mayst be a portent for those after thee. Lo! most of mankind are heedless of Our portents."  10:92.


The Pharaoh who ruled Egypt during the period of Prophet Moses (pbuh) remained a disbeliever and never ceased from harassing Prophet Moses and his brother, Aaron (peace be on them).   Pharaoh believed only when he was at the doorstep of death and knew he was about to drown.  But believing at the last moment benefits no soul.   It's very likely that this Pharaoh was Ramses II, but only Allah knows best.

There were approximately 13 more pharaohs that came after Ramses II as his death gradually ushered the downfall of the pharaoh dynasty of Egypt.

Apart from Verse 10:92 quoted above, the fact that the Pharaoh of Prophet Moses' era died by drowning has additionally been confirmed in Verses 28:40, 17:103 and 43:55.   We suggest that you check these Verses yourself for reference.

The altered Bibles mention that the Pharaoh was enveloped and overwhelmed by the sea. That much is correct.  But unlike the Noble Quran, it does not say what consequently happened to the body and because of this ambiguity in the altered Bibles, many non-Muslims don't believe that Pharaoh died at all.  Some sources have added to that ambiguity that he neither drowned or died.  In the Hollywood production of the movie "Ten Commandments" starring Charlton Heston, Pharaoh is shown to have lived who didn't go after Moses and instead sent his army to pursue him.  These are all incorrect stories that totally clash with the basic facts confirmed in the Quran.  Pharaoh himself led his army in pursuance of Prophet Moses and Pharaoh most certainly died of drowning when the sea came together after its parting. 

According to historical references, Pharaoh's body (possibly Ramses II) was originally entombed in the "Valley of the Kings," a customary spot for the tombs of Egyptian pharaohs.  But some time later, his tomb was shifted to some other location for fear of looters.  In 1880s, a hidden spot that housed the tombs of mummified pharaohs and other Egyptian "VIPs" was discovered at Ad-Dayr al-Baḥri (الدير البحري ) which was a complex of mortuary temples constructed on the west of the River Nile in 15th century B.C.  Since Ramses II  died in approximately 3,000 B.C., hence the information of the removal of his tomb alludes to approximately 1500 years after his death.  Purportedly in 1974, Egyptian archeologists noticed its deteriorating condition and sent it to Paris where it was "treated for a fungal infection."  Other reports say that in early 1980s, the French Government requested the Egyptian Government to send the embalmed body of Ramses II.  Over this, some suggest the French Government wanted to run lab & archaeological tests while others suggest it was for purpose of conservation & prevention from deterioration.  Whatever might have been the reason, the fact is that the mummified body was sent to Paris sometime between early 1970s and early 1980s and a thorough examination was carried out by French experts.  Apparently an element of curiosity on the side of the French Government was a factor.   The results have never been made public.  The entire process of transporting the mummy from Egypt to Paris and back was a very hush-hush issue.

At present, the mummified body believed to be of one of Egypt's most wanton and cruel pharaohs, Ramses II, is on display in the Royal Mummies Chamber of the Egyptian Museum in Cairo.   

Modern historians surmise that some time in history, ancient tomb robbers hacked his tomb and cut his mummified body with a knife looking for loot. This bit about tomb robbers is a speculation. Cutting up the body (usually the left side of the abdomen) and removing the internal organs was a common practice and part of the process of mummification in ancient Egypt to prevent decomposition.

It must be also be noted that mummified bodies do not guarantee perfect preservation.  If you look at mummified images of ancient humans, they all appear emaciated, bony, several of them literally like skeletons, with blemishes on curved discolored bodies and strange arrangement of teeth.  They look exactly like cadavers.  These are simply the process of deterioration of remains that come about naturally despite the efforts of the ancient embalmers. 

While some sources of information say it was Remeses II who was drowned, few other sources say it was Merenptah, his son, who succeeded Rameses II.   But as we read the information provided by history, the greater likelihood is that the mummified body is that of  Ramses II.  According to the claims of history, Merenptah ruled for a much shorter period than his father, only 10 years.  He came to power at age 60 as all his male siblings were dead by that time.  The historical and scientific presumption also says Ramses II ruled for 67 years, had more than 100 children and died at age 90.  Non of all this can be confirmed.  If he was 90 at the time he drowned, how would a 90-year-old ruler be energetic enough to lead his army?  No answers for that from the wranglers.  The Noble Quran certainly does not indicate that the Pharaoh was as old as 90.  It's impossible to prove which one of the two - father or son - ruled during the specific time of the Exodus and neither is it significant to prove or disprove such issues.  But the much lengthier stretch of the father's rule (if that's accurate) obviously makes it more probable that it was him and not his son who drowned in the sea in an effort to follow Prophet Moses (pbuh).  Historical data also presumes that Prophet Moses was born during the reign of Ramses II.  Again, considering the very long reign of Ramses II (if correct), it's possible that Prophet Moses' was born during Ramses II's period, but we cannot confirm it as Ramses's 67-year rule itself cannot be confirmed since no historical data as ancient as this can be asserted for sure.  Moreover, there have been no mummified findings of anyone who might be called Merenptah.  The mummified body under discussion and whose mummified images have widely appeared is commonly identified as Ramses II.

Some critics refute the discovery of salt in Pharaoh's mummified body as a reliable evidence that he was drowned in the sea.  They say salt was used during all mummifications for preserving the body.  That's probably true; salt was used for preservation of remains.  However, first of all, presence of salt is not a relevant point for evidence according to the Quranic perspective. The actual point is the discovery of the the body as lots of embalmed ancient pharaohs and rulers have been lost in history or simply destroyed by invaders and the valuables placed within their tombs looted.  Secondly, the salt used for mummification was different from regular salt.  It was called natron or washing soda (today known as soda ash) harvested from dry lake beds (not sea water) as a salt mixture in ancient Egypt.  It was used for thousands of years in ancient and medieval eras as a cleaning product for the body blended with oil, and also as a cleaning agent for household items.   When Dr. Maurice Bucaille and other French experts carried out a thorough examination of the pharaoh's embalmed body, all they needed to do was to test the source of the sodium used for mummification which would surely be a very simple test.  It's impossible that they didn't already perform that test and assert that it wasn't sea salt.   But the original report of their detailed examination of the embalmed body has never been officially published for the public to read .. apparently on the directives of the then French Government.  Since Dr. Buicalle  seriously considered his discovery compatible with Verse 10:92, hence almost all Western researchers have adopted a sulky and dismissive attitude toward him and the Islamophobes have derided him.

Research also claims that during mummification Ramses' head was accidentally knocked.  There is a misinformation there too.  His head was not "accidentally" knocked, it was purposely knocked .. knocked hard.  As a part of the mummification process, a long hook was used to smash the brain of the corpse and pull it out through the nose to prevent the remains from decomposing.  Sounds absolutely ghastly, but that's what they did with all corpses while preparing for mummification.

Altogether the mummified bodies of some five pharaohs have so far been found.  It's not easy to confirm which one might be the one of Prophet Moses' time.  I repeat it's impossible for historical information derived today to be used as an evidence for anything they may claim.  They are far too unreliable, contradictory, changeable and scrappy. We are talking of an era 3400 years in the past!

Western discourse on Ramses II's body being sent to Paris gives no all-inclusive account other than unnecessary details and repetitions.  The useless aspect Western researchers are most fixated upon is the color of the Pharaoh's hair.  They concluded he died when he was 90 (guesswork) and most of his hair was white, some orange-red colored with henna.  But on examining the roots of his hair, it was found that some of his pigments were also naturally red by which the French concluded that he was a natural redhead.  Laughable!  This was a motivated stance because the Senegalese began claiming the Ramses II was black.  Though Egyptians aren't blacks, they are seldom or never natural redheads.  Another guess by Western observers over Ramses II's supposed red hair is that perhaps he was a Berber. A highly unlikely guess as the same history also tells us that Berbers had very little presence and influence in ancient Egypt as today.  At the start of 21st century, the Encyclopedia Britannica says that there were approximately 14 million Berbers in Morocco, about 9 million in Algeria, and much smaller numbers in Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, and Mauretania. In 2000 BC, only the Berber language known as "Amazigh" had reportedly spread a little around the Nile valley.  It made no further headway and there is little or no evidence of Berber immigration in Egypt in 2000 BC, much less in 3000 or 3400 BC - the era of the Pharaohs.

A terribly funny part of it is that in modern 20th century between the early 1970s and early 80s, the mummy of this dictator-killer was received in Paris with full official protocol and prior to leaving Cairo the mummy was also given an Egyptian "passport."  While France today deports hundreds of legal Muslim immigrants, a 3400-year-old cadaver of a dictator was received with military honor, official protocol with a phoney passport.  Such ludicrous attitude is surely a dazzling proof of the West's affinity for imperial dictatorship.  The greater the tyrant, the more they will honor that brute, even his rotting remains. 

CONCLUSION:
While only Allah knows best, it's very, very possible that the information in the Quranic Verse 10:92  that Pharaoh's corpse would serve as a warning and a sign for later generations is meant to be an indication that his body would remain visible to earth dwellers as a vital reminder.  Apparently, the Pharaoh's body floated to shore after being drowned, was found, mummified according to the ancient custom and then taken to the prepared burial chamber by the ancient Egyptians.

Alternatively it can also be a symbolic reference as a warning to the future dwellers of Hellfire that Pharaoh will be one of the hapless "celebrities" of Hell for them to watch. This possibility has been expressed in one of our earlier posts that Verse 10:92 may not carry a literal meaning, but only Allah knows best.
 
Report Spam   Logged

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter

Ruhi_Rose
TEAM MUSLIM VILLA The Avid Reader | Mom of 3 cute rascals
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6287



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2015, 01:00:29 am »


Research also claims that during mummification Ramses' head was accidentally knocked.  There is a misinformation there too.  His head was not "accidentally" knocked, it was purposely knocked .. knocked hard.  As a part of the mummification process, a long hook was used to smash the brain of the corpse and pull it out through the nose to prevent the remains from decomposing.  Sounds absolutely ghastly, but that's what they did with all corpses while preparing for mummification.
 

Ya Allah!  Were they human beings or what?  Taubah!  Making me sick.  First cutting the stomach and removing all organs, then bashing the skull so that it oozes out of the nose ..... these mummifiers would make perfect criminals .. and the embalming site must have been looking like a slaughter house filled with bloodied filth.  Truly sickening!



A terribly funny part of it is that in modern 20th century between the early 1970s and early 80s, the mummy of this dictator-killer was received in Paris with full official protocol and prior to leaving Cairo the mummy was also given an Egyptian "passport."  While France today deports hundreds of legal Muslim immigrants, a 3400-year-old cadaver of a dictator was received with military honor, official protocol with a phoney passport.  Such ludicrous attitude is surely a dazzling proof of the West's affinity for imperial dictatorship.  The greater the tyrant, the more they will honor that brute, even his rotting remains.
 

Ahaa ha ha ... great observation.  Besides, on a more serious note, it once again displays the deviance of the misguided world honoring a horribly, horribly wrong thing.


The conclusion spells it out perfectly well.  Verse 10:92 can go both ways - a literal meaning or a symbolic one for the next world or both.  I think it's both.  And I find not a sliver of evidence that stands on the way to refute that the one thought to be Ramses II was the one doomed in the sea.  What only a thoughtfully penetrating mind can grasp is that NONE can thwart the plans of Allah, The Almighty.  Since it was Allah's plan to make sure the sinful Ramses' embalmed body does not get destroyed or stolen and stays visible to discerning eyes for drawing lessons,  hence it's ever easy for The Almighty to bring the sinner's body ashore.  While the ignorant will embalm him and sprinkle him with gold and precious stones, the discerning on looking at this Satanic representation will seek refuge in Allah.


And again I don't understand what is there in this Verse for the vexatious and obnoxious attackers of the Quran to raise a raucous about?
Report Spam   Logged

Heba E. Husseyn
TEAM MUSLIM VILLA Villa Artisan
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4974



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2015, 10:44:41 am »

Pretty interesting.  Thank you brother TS.   These are very skillfully cleared up points.  It makes the matter simple enough for anyone to grasp that the sort of disapproval and fault-finding assaults conducted by the trouble-making Islamophobe sickos has no foundation and therefore, no bearing and serves no purpose except the fulfillment of promoting hate and hostility.


Apparently, the Pharaoh's body floated to shore after being drowned, was found, ........

It's also possible that his drowned body may have been brought by one of his failed warriors who accompanied him and then swam ashore getting/dragging the body with him.

Yes right, salt on the body is not supposed to be an evidence anyway.  So many people die of drowning in the sea and their bodies are later recovered but never covered with salt.  Actually many of our scholars bring up incorrect and insignificant points in an attempt to provide evidences which ends up providing ammunition to the brute attackers to wage their pathetic criticisms.

You're also right that the team of experts, Dr. Bucaille in particular, must have pointed out that the salt covering the mummy was lake salt, not sea salt.  But it's definitely suspicious why the French authorities have spoken nothing about their examination of the mummy.   You will particularly be surprised how much annoyance and chagrin they harbor toward Dr. Maurice Bucaille.  Late Dr. Bucaille himself admitted that his writings and interpretations of the Quran have angered many Western scholars because of their customary bias against Islam and the Prophet (pbuh).  As I see it, it's clearly a case of jealousy and fury arising from not accepting the superiority of the Quran as intact, purley Divine, original and unaltered compared to the Old and New Testaments that have been completely messed up by human hands.


Cutting up the body (usually the left side of the abdomen) and removing the internal organs  ..................  As a part of the mummification process, a long hook was used to smash the brain of the corpse and pull it out through the nose ..............

Hair-raising !!  Frightfully atrocious ....



While France today deports hundreds of legal Muslim immigrants, a 3400-year-old cadaver of a dictator was received with military honor, official protocol with a phoney passport.  Such ludicrous attitude is surely a dazzling proof of the West's affinity for imperial dictatorship.  The greater the tyrant, the more they will honor that brute, even his rotting remains.

Absolutely true, brother.  I didn't know about this shitty drama of a 3000-year-old Hellbound crumpled carcass being given a "passport" and a bunch of stunts called protocol.



The conclusion spells it out perfectly well.  Verse 10:92 can go both ways - a literal meaning or a symbolic one for the next world or both.  I think it's both.

Exactly, same here Sister Ruhi.


 
Report Spam   Logged


Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Send this topic  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal
Scammers & spammers will be reported | © If you borrow MV contents you must mention our link with hypertext | MV Team is not responsible for comments by members or guests.
Bookmark this site! | Upgrade This Forum
SMF For Free - Create your own Forum


Powered by SMF | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines
Privacy Policy