Registration of new members is currently closed. Guestbook opened for now.  Guests who have questions may post at our guestbook.  No lengthy debates please. Kindly note: MV is a place for serious learning through mutual consultation where we have zero tolerance for trouble-makers, narcissists and needless disputants. We simply stand for what is compatible with the Noble Quran regardless of titles such as "traditionalism" or "modernism." We have the right to our opinion just as you have the right to yours. All disagreements must be left at that. Final Judgement belongs to The Almighty.
MUSLIM VILLA - QURAN ONLY
March 28, 2024, 02:45:49 pm
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home Help Search Arcade Gallery Links Staff List Calendar Login Register  

Recording angels or Kiraman-Katibin (كراماً كاتبين )

+-
Shoutbox
November 01, 2023, 03:44:32 pm Zainab_M: Allahhuma ameen .. ameen.
November 01, 2023, 03:43:43 pm Ruhi_Rose: Yes .. making lots of dua everyday ..... watching those real life video clips, my face feels wet with tears all the time.  May ALLAH grant the best to these wonderful, brave & steadfast martyrs,  Ameen ya Allah.
November 01, 2023, 03:38:26 pm Zainab_M: Keep praying, praying a lot for Gaza. It's worse than a prison .. it's a concentration camp.  Children as young as 10 or 11 are having to care for their younger siblings ages 2, 3 and 4 becoz many have lost both parents.  It's a very, very, very tearful situation there.
October 26, 2023, 03:40:19 pm N. Truth Seeker: Don't forget to look up MV Blog Zainab's Lounge for our Gaza updates.
October 20, 2023, 04:24:44 pm Zainab_M: Right sister Heba.  Gaza hospital bombing has the fingerprints of Israel all over it.  For Israel this is no big crime.  They have done this and much worse many times in the past and intend to do the same and worse many more times in near future.
October 20, 2023, 04:20:20 pm Heba E. Husseyn: Catching Zionist lies isn't hard. Soon after Gaza hospital bombing killing and maiming hundreds, Israel was quick to accuse Islamic Jihad of a misfired rocket.  That didn't sound plausible because IJ does not have such sophisticated bombing devices.  Zionist lie was fully exposed when anglican archbishop of Jerusalem,Hosam Naoum,  said today that 3 or 4 days prior to boming Israel had warned Gaza hospital to evacuate. Yet CIA claims in its flawed analysis that the rocket did not come from Israel.  But conveniently does not explain how Israel could have known 4 days earlier that a "misfired" rocket from IJ was coming.  Yet on the basis of this flawed & bias analysis of CIA, Biden is comforting Israel he believes Israel didn't do that war crimes bombing.
July 29, 2023, 03:02:07 am Zainab_M: Yesterday was Ashura, Muharram 10, 1444 (July 27, 2023).  Read about this very tragic day and details of the world's greatest 7th century revolutionary: WHO WAS HUSSEIN.
June 28, 2023, 09:48:39 am Zainab_M: Walaikum As Salaam.  This was the first Hajj open to all after the pandemic. It was attended by 2.6 million Muslims.
View Shout History
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down
  Send this topic  |  Print  
Author Topic: Recording angels or Kiraman-Katibin (كراماً كاتبين )  (Read 10693 times)
0 Members and 11 Guests are viewing this topic.
Zainab_M
TEAM MV Founder
Admin
Hero Member
*
Posts: 6318



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2019, 11:35:58 am »



Walaikum Salaam dear Sister Ruhi.   Yes, though Allah knows best, I would presume that these terms refer to recording angels. 

Additionally, here is the tafsir by Abu Alaa Maududi on Verses 50:17-21 which explains the Verses very clearly and you may find it helpful.

Quote:

..... each person has two angels appointed over them.  These angels are recording whatever every person does and says; none of their actions or words is left unrecorded.  This means that when a person is produced in the Court of Allah,  then Allah The All-Knower will be already knowing what each person has done in the world; besides, there will also be two witnesses who will produce documentary evidence of the person's actions and deeds. As to what will be the nature of this documentary evidence, it is difficult for us to have a precise conception of it. But from the facts that we are witnessing today, it seems certain that the voices, pictures, marks and movements of human actions are being preserved and imprinted on every particle of the environment in which they live and work, and each one of these can be reproduced in exactly the same form and voice so as to leave no difference whatever between the original and its copy.  Humankind is doing this on a very limited scale with the help of their inventions, but the angels of Allah do not stand in need of these machines nor are bound by any limitation. The body of humankind itself and everything around it is their tape and their film upon which they can record every voice and every image along with its minutest and most delicate detail precisely and exactly, and can make humankind hear on the Day of Resurrection, with their own ears, in their own voice, those very things which they talked in the world, and can make them see with their own eyes the pictures of all their misdeeds, whose genuineness they would not possibly be able to deny.

Here, one should also understand that in the Court of the Hereafter, Allah will not punish anybody only on the basis of His own knowledge, but will punish them after fulfilling all the requirements of justice. That is why an exhaustive record is being prepared of every person's words and deeds in the world so that a complete proof with undeniable evidence becomes available of everyone's life-work and activity.

..... the agony of death is the starting point when the reality which had remained concealed in the world, begins to be unveiled. At this point every human being starts to see clearly the other world of which the Prophet (pbuh) had forewarned them. Here, humankind also comes to know that the Hereafter is the very truth, and also whether they will be entering this second stage of life as favored or damned. 

At this point, humans are reminded that this is the same reality which they refused to believe. They desired that they should live and go about unbridled in the world, and there should be no other life after death in which they may have to suffer for the consequences of their ill deeds.  Thus they shunned the concept of the Hereafter and were not at all inclined to believe that this next world would ever be established. Now they see that the same next world is unveiling itself before them.

Blowing of the Trumpet implies all dead will rise back to life in their own physical bodies.

A driver and a witness most probably refer to the same two angels who had been appointed for compiling the record of the words and deeds of every person in the world. On the Day of Resurrection, when every person will rise from their grave on the sounding of the Trumpet, the two (recording) angels will come forth immediately and take each person into their custody. One of them will drive him to the Divine Court and the other will be carrying his record.


Unquote:


Report Spam   Logged

Ruhi_Rose
TEAM MUSLIM VILLA The Avid Reader | Mom of 3 cute rascals
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6287



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2019, 11:41:03 am »



Aw!  tons of thanks my dear sis.   Indeed a very satisfying read and most helpful.

Alhumdulilah, ya Rab.



Report Spam   Logged

N. Truth Seeker
Quiet guy technology nerd | TEAM MUSLIM VILLA
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4347



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2019, 09:57:12 am »



SubhanAllah, this tafsir is very good.
Report Spam   Logged

Heba E. Husseyn
TEAM MUSLIM VILLA Villa Artisan
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4970



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2020, 09:50:44 am »



Was going through this marvelous post again and it reminded me to ask, what do you folks think about the difference between Maghfirah (مغفرة) and Afu (عفو) as explained by our mainstream jurists?
Report Spam   Logged

Zainab_M
TEAM MV Founder
Admin
Hero Member
*
Posts: 6318



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2020, 10:28:16 am »


Hummm, though Maghfirah and Afu are both Quranic terms with very simple definitions, the concept that has emerged differentiating between the two words comes from a du'a in Hadith.  The Noble Quran does not give us any reasons to accept that differentiating aspect. 
Report Spam   Logged

N. Truth Seeker
Quiet guy technology nerd | TEAM MUSLIM VILLA
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4347



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2020, 10:29:43 am »



Absolutely right Sister Zeynab.
Report Spam   Logged

Ruhi_Rose
TEAM MUSLIM VILLA The Avid Reader | Mom of 3 cute rascals
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6287



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2020, 10:32:00 am »



Yes very true, Maghfirah and Afu are both Quranic terms with easy-to-understand definitions. 

But what's the difference portrayed by Hadith between these two words?   I don't know that.
Report Spam   Logged

N. Truth Seeker
Quiet guy technology nerd | TEAM MUSLIM VILLA
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4347



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2020, 10:53:48 am »


Maghfirah means forgiveness from Allah and Afu means The Pardoner or the Most Forgiving, that is, Allah Himself.  Both these terms are found in the Quran several times.  Our jurists say there's a difference between the concept of Maghfirah and Afu but the Noble Quran does not reflect that at all.

According to Hadith and extra-Quranic sources, Maghfirah is Allah’s forgiveness for your sin but on the Day of Judgement it will be written on your record.  Allah will question you about it but HE won’t punish you for it.  Afu is forgiveness from Allah for our sins and that sin will be completely erased from our records and Allah won't question us about it on the Day of Judgment, as if it never happened.

From what I know, it was developed from a du'a in the following Hadith. Tirmidhi Book 9, Hadith 1195:
Aisha (ra) asked the Prophet: "O Messenger of Allah! If I realize Lailat-ul-Qadr (Night of Decree), what should I supplicate in it?" He (ﷺ) replied, "You should supplicate:Allahumma innaka 'afuwwun, tuhibbul-'afwa, fa'fu 'anni الْلَّهُمَّ اِنَّكَ عَفُوٌّ تُحِبُّ الْعَفْوَ فَاعْفُ عَنَّي'  O Allah, You are The Forgiver, You Love Forgiveness, so Forgive me'.

The Quran does not convey this idea. Allah says in the Quran that He is very forgiving and of course He mentions the huge importance of acquiring His forgiveness.  What happens to the sins of a person recorded in their book of records is not discussed in the Quran.  Only Allah Almighty knows whether or not recorded sins will be deleted from our book of records.  We cannot make any assumptions on that.  If we are fortunate enough to receive Maghfirah or Afu, it's the same as far as we are concerned. 

 
Report Spam   Logged

Ruhi_Rose
TEAM MUSLIM VILLA The Avid Reader | Mom of 3 cute rascals
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6287



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2020, 10:55:25 am »



Ah!  I see.  I now get it.  I don't know why our folks don't learn to focus on their own responsibilities instead of  prying into the responsibilities of Allah Almighty and then making stories out of it based on the unreliable institutions Hadith narrations. 

Plenty of thanks for this, brother.
Report Spam   Logged

N. Truth Seeker
Quiet guy technology nerd | TEAM MUSLIM VILLA
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4347



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2020, 10:57:38 am »



lol ,, that's the old problem with them.  They love to come up with too many conceptualizations not contained in the Quran.

You're welcome Sister. 



Report Spam   Logged

Zainab_M
TEAM MV Founder
Admin
Hero Member
*
Posts: 6318



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2020, 03:05:45 am »



Very well explained and commented, brother TS and sister Ruhi. 

I think this conceptualization on difference between Maghfirah and Afu goes beyond the hadith.  Even that hadith supplication does not convey the idea of such a difference between the two words.  Maghfirah = forgiveness and Afu = The Forgiver (Allah).   So, I've wondered much how the notion of Maghfirah as forgiven but unerased sins and Afu as forgiven and erased sins came about.  Apparently it was a personal thought of some medieval jurist.


Report Spam   Logged

N. Truth Seeker
Quiet guy technology nerd | TEAM MUSLIM VILLA
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4347



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2020, 11:38:52 am »



Your observation is absolutely right Sister Zeynab.  Apparently hadith too has been hoodwinked on this one by storytellers.  It's because that hadith supplication contains the root word 'Afu' so it was stretched further by someone's unfounded opinion on claiming 'Afu' isn't the same as Maghfirah.  Although in this hadith, Afu refers to The Forgiver (Allah Almighty).

 
Report Spam   Logged

Zainab_M
TEAM MV Founder
Admin
Hero Member
*
Posts: 6318



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2020, 11:39:54 am »



Exactly brother, that's what I noticed too.
Report Spam   Logged

Heba E. Husseyn
TEAM MUSLIM VILLA Villa Artisan
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4970



WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2020, 11:42:58 am »



Very helpful to know all your opinions.  I had been thinking the same, wanted to compare my views yours.
Report Spam   Logged


Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up
  Send this topic  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal
Scammers & spammers will be reported | © If you borrow MV contents you must mention our link with hypertext | MV Team is not responsible for comments by members or guests.
Bookmark this site! | Upgrade This Forum
SMF For Free - Create your own Forum


Powered by SMF | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines
Privacy Policy