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Open Glorious Qur'an Discussion - VERSE 4:159

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Author Topic: Open Glorious Qur'an Discussion - VERSE 4:159  (Read 316 times)
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N. Truth Seeker
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« on: December 07, 2007, 02:49:28 am »

 salamem


It took me almost a day to go through this entire thread as I'm a slow and distracted reader Grin  It was worth it for I found it remarkably illuminating.  Thanks all. (ref. to threads of verses 2:177 and part of 4:119 before thread was split)

To continue with Surah An-Nisa, I would appreciate any comments I can get on the following verse.

There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them -   4:159

The 2 preceding verses (4:157 and 158) mention that Jesus son of Mary did not die on the cross and he was not crucified but Allah took him up.  So, we know and believe that Jesus son of Mary didn't die.  In the light of that, what might be the meaning of the "death" of Jesus as stated in the above quoted verse 4:159 ?
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Zainab_M
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« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2007, 03:07:47 am »

salamem


It took me almost a day to go through this entire thread as I'm a slow and distracted reader Grin  It was worth it for I found it remarkably illuminating.  Thanks all.

Wa'salaam and thanks brother PT.  I appreciate that ..  Smiley

To continue with Surah An-Nisa, I would appreciate any comments I can get on the following verse.

There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them -   4:159

The 2 preceding verses (4:157 and 158) mention that Jesus son of Mary did not die on the cross and he was not crucified but Allah took him up.  So, we know and believe that Jesus son of Mary didn't die.  In the light of that, what might be the meaning of the "death" of Jesus as stated in the above quoted verse 4:159 ?

Well perceived brother.  According to my understanding, I think the death of Jesus son of Mary refers to the Last Day followed by the Resurrection of all and dispensing of Divine Judgment as explained in the Glorious Quraan.  As per the concept of Doomsday in the Quraan, I get the notion that on this Last Day the status of all living beings will be that of death.  It is then from this state of death that they'll be resurrected by the command of the Almighty Allah.  Therefore, when Allah says that the followers of Jesus won't believe in him till his death, it could refer that they won't believe in him till he is resurrected on the Day of Judgment. 

And Allah knows best.

It will be helpful to hear from others about this verse.
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« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2007, 04:10:13 am »

I too see verse 4:159 the same way as explained by sister zeynab.  Would also like to read br. Aoh's opinion.

By the way, I would surmise that the hadith followers would try to somehow (though I don't know how) link this verse with the return of Jesus son of Mary, just the way they believe on the return of Mahdi.  In fact, the idea of return of Mahdi has been borrowed from return of Jesus into hadith, and hadith borrowed the idea of return of Jesus from the Bible.
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« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2007, 09:46:28 pm »

MaashAllah both sis CP and br AOH have presented a whole lot of brilliant points.  My personal understanding of the Quran fits a bit better with sister's view.  But this doesn't mean I gotta be right. (This is about v.4:119)

Thanks sis zeynab for responding to V.4:159 which I inquired.  That sounds sensible.  sis CP had nothing to add to that.  br. AOH .. would u like giving a feedback on this verse?  and I don't know where sis rose has disappeared.  she too is an intelligent sister.

Salaam.  God bless all of u
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« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2007, 04:51:55 pm »

Assalamu alikum to all.

Sister Cat Prowler, thank you for your response. I will reply to your post later, inshaaAllah. (ref.v.4:119)

As for the Verse under discussion. I would like to offer a new interpretation. The "before his death" is refering to individuals from the People of the Book and not the Prophet Jesus himself.



The People of the Book must believe in the truth revealed about Prophet Jesus before their death. "Yu minu bihi" refers to the truth about Prophet Jesus, "qabla mawthehi" refers to deaths of individuals of the People of the Book.

The translation used in the dagram is Muhammad Ahmed and his Daughter Samira who agree with this. Below is another translator who also agrees with this.

4:159 Everyone among the People of the Book must believe before dying, in the truth just stated. Jesus will be a witness against them on the Day of Resurrection (that he was neither crucified nor raised to the heavens. God is not confined to the Heavens). [Shakir]

No interpretation here is parmanent for me, but I go for this one at this time. I will consider changing if something more convincing comes to me by Allah's will.

Interested to hear what others think of this. 

peace.
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« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2007, 04:09:07 pm »

Assalamu alikum to all.


As for the Verse under discussion. I would like to offer a new interpretation. The "before his death" is refering to individuals from the People of the Book and not the Prophet Jesus himself.



The People of the Book must believe in the truth revealed about Prophet Jesus before their death. "Yu minu bihi" refers to the truth about Prophet Jesus, "qabla mawthehi" refers to deaths of individuals of the People of the Book.

OK, got this.  Makes perfect sense.  Actually the translation I quoted was a bit obscure in terms of "him" and "his."  Thanks a lot for this brother.


4:159 Everyone among the People of the Book must believe before dying, in the truth just stated. Jesus will be a witness against them on the Day of Resurrection (that he was neither crucified nor raised to the heavens. God is not confined to the Heavens). [Shakir]


peace.


Though this wasn't my question, but the above translation by Shakir made me curious.  He writes in brackets "that he was neither crucified not raised to the heavens. God is not confined to the Heavens."

Definitely everyone knows Allah is not confined to just one place.  Allah is everywhere.  In accordance to this, whenever one mentions "Heavens" that doesn't only mean Paradise but it means the entire cosmos or everywhere.  I thought that was understood.  But again, this topic wasn't my question either. Shakir writes in brackets that Jesus son of Mary was not crucified which is correct.  He then also say that Jesus wasn't raised to the heavens.  If this last bit of his interpretation about not being raised to the heavens is to be accepted, how would one explain verse 4:158 in which Allah Himself mentions that took Jesus son of Mary up unto Himself.  This is obviously supposed to be understood similar to the meaning that Allah took Jesus up unto the Heavens ..... I mean there's no need for people to argue about irrelevant language matters like these as I would see it.  What's really important and worth mentioning is that whatever shaikir has said about Jesus not being taken up by Allah unto Heavens (whatever shakir meant by "Heanvens") is his own explanation to further elaborate his views and is not a translation of the original.  This isn't a right practice.  Translators should refrain from putting their personal explanations, even if it's in brackets, alongside with translations of originals unless it's for the purpose of grammatical clarification.  As against shakir's words in brackets as quoted in the above translation, the fact that Allah did take Jesus son of Mary up unto Himself is stated in verse 4:158 outside of brackets. This is stated by Allah Himself.  Surprisingly enough, shakir too mentions in his translation of verse 4:158 that Allah took Jesus son of Mary up to Himself.  And yet he gives that misleading interpretation in brackets with verse 4:159.  Such tactics of translators display a very inappropriate conduct on their part.

But on second thoughts it makes me wonder to what extent the translation of v.4:159 quoted above is really by Shakir.  According to this site(http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=4&translator=3#160 ) Shakir's translation of this verse is different, as follows:

"And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them."

Compare this with the translation u quoted:

"Everyone among the People of the Book must believe before dying, in the truth just stated. Jesus will be a witness against them on the Day of Resurrection (that he was neither crucified nor raised to the heavens. God is not confined to the Heavens)."

Unless I'm overlooking something somewhere.  In that case please correct me.

 

-----------------
Various translations of v.4:159

But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.
(4: 158) Pickthall

Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
(4: 158) Yousuf Ali

But Allah raised him (Iesa (Jesus)) up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he is in the heavens). And Allah is Ever AllPowerful, AllWise.
(4: 158) Mohsen Khan

Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
(4:158) Shakir
[/i]

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« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2007, 06:41:08 pm »


As for the Verse under discussion. I would like to offer a new interpretation. The "before his death" is refering to individuals from the People of the Book and not the Prophet Jesus himself.


Br. AOH, thanks a million for your explanation of V.4:159.  I would rather accept this than mine.  I got taken away by the terms 'him' and 'his.'  And yes, a clarification for grammar in brackets would have helped.  However I should have thought about this on my own.

About the second point regarding words in bracket written by MH Shakir, similar to br.PT, I too strongly disagree .. in case Shakir really wrote them.  In any case, even if he did, it's his personal view so I wouldn't bother. 
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« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2007, 06:44:26 pm »

BTW .. since this thread is getting too long with several verses under discussion, it might be a better idea to split the thread as 'Open Glorious Quraan Discussion (with the respective verse numbers).  Therefore, I might need to add a few references of other posts for clarification of readers in certain posts.  I hope u won't mind that folks.  Rest assured, nobody's original posts are gonna be changed.  Smiley  So from now on, let's discuss each verse in a separate thread.
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