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Open Glorious Qur'an Discussion -(V.4:119)

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Heba E. Husseyn
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« on: December 05, 2007, 02:58:02 am »


Does any one else want to choose a Verse/s so that we may ponder and discuss the wisdom our Lord has revealed in it?


I have been thinking about an expression in verse 119 of Surah An-Nissa.  It struck me as a hint on today's cloning.  The interpretation looks to me like humans trying to tamper with natural creations of Allah and subsequently changing the method of birth and perhaps various biological factors also.  It would be helpful to know the views of others.   The verse is about Satan's strategy to misguide humans.

Below is verse 4:119 of different translators.  I'm referring to the meaning of the underlined words in color.

"And surely I will lead them astray, and surely I will arouse desires in them, and surely I will command them and they will cut the cattle' ears, and surely I will command them and they will change Allah's creation. Whoso chooseth Satan for a patron instead of Allah is verily a loser and his loss is manifest."   Translation Pickthall

"I will mislead them, and I will create in them false desires; I will order them to slit the ears of cattle, and to deface the (fair) nature created by Allah." Whoever, forsaking Allah, takes satan for a friend, hath of a surety suffered a loss that is manifest.  Translation Yusuf Ali

Verily, I will mislead them, and surely, I will arouse in them false desires; and certainly, I will order them to slit the ears of cattle, and indeed I will order them to change the nature created by Allah." And whoever takes Shaitan (Satan) as a Walee (protector or helper) instead of Allah, has surely suffered a manifest loss.  Translation Mohsin

And most certainly I will lead them astray and excite in them vain desires, and bid them so that they shall slit the ears of the cattle, and most certainlyI will bid them so that they shall alter Allah's creation; and whoever takes the Shaitan for a guardian rather than Allah he indeed shall suffer a manifest loss. Translation Shakir


Salaam and thanks everyone
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« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2007, 02:24:02 pm »

Excellent Observation. Mashaa Allah. Thank you very much for your input!! Smiley

I agree with you that this Verse is a good reference to what scientists are doing in trying to clone human beings and other creatures of Allah.
Why is it "changing Allah's creation"? They are changning Allah's creation because they are altering the nucleus which Allah has already designed and placed in all beings which He creates and brings into the world. There is no need, nor is there any beneficial purpose in doing this - except that these scientist can feel they have achieved something remarkable and somehow surpassed the power of the Creator.

I believe this is indeed the Satan's ploy as this Verse of the Sublime Qur'an shows clearly.

Something else I think about when I read this Verse is circumcision. Sunnis and Shias "circumcise" their boys and also girls in many places. They cut off a part of the human body which Allah has created perfectly - thereby altering Allah's creation. Satan says he will command people to change Allah's creation, that is what they are doing. Allah says in several Verses of the Qur'an how He has created everythig perfectly and in best of forms. For example: "the doing of Allah Who perfected all things" [Qur'an 27:88]
Did Allah accidentally leave piece of flesh on the human which people need to cut off using a knife? Did He, the Best of Creators make a mistake? Of course not. "Blessed be God, the Best of Creators! (Qur'an, 23:14)

Are you a brother or a sister? Just so I can refer to you properly. Smiley

Thanks for posting this Verse and your reflections on this Verse. Alhamdulillah Smiley

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« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2007, 04:14:53 pm »

Excellent Observation. Mashaa Allah. Thank you very much for your input!! Smiley

I agree with you that this Verse is a good reference to what scientists are doing in trying to clone human beings and other creatures of Allah.
Why is it "changing Allah's creation"? They are changning Allah's creation because they are altering the nucleus which Allah has already designed and placed in all beings which He creates and brings into the world. There is no need, nor is there any beneficial purpose in doing this - except that these scientist can feel they have achieved something remarkable and somehow surpassed the power of the Creator.

I believe this is indeed the Satan's ploy as this Verse of the Sublime Qur'an shows clearly.

Something else I think about when I read this Verse is circumcision. Sunnis and Shias "circumcise" their boys and also girls in many places. They cut off a part of the human body which Allah has created perfectly - thereby altering Allah's creation. Satan says he will command people to change Allah's creation, that is what they are doing. Allah says in several Verses of the Qur'an how He has created everythig perfectly and in best of forms. For example: "the doing of Allah Who perfected all things" [Qur'an 27:88]
Did Allah accidentally leave piece of flesh on the human which people need to cut off using a knife? Did He, the Best of Creators make a mistake? Of course not. "Blessed be God, the Best of Creators! (Qur'an, 23:14)

Are you a brother or a sister? Just so I can refer to you properly. Smiley

Thanks for posting this Verse and your reflections on this Verse. Alhamdulillah Smiley




Assalaam alaykum and thanks for the detailed and well studied response my brother.  I am sister, middle aged sis with 3 teenage kids and a wonderful husband and household, Alhamdulilah  teethsmile

I perfectly agree with your views about cloning.  It serves no purpose and the goal is only to show off their scientific achievements.  In fact it has a down side to it.  Most cloned animals have an obesity problem and have not been found to live healthy lives.  They tend to age pre-maturely, somewhat like the rare human disease, progeria.  Dolly the Sheep died of lung infection.  She developed lung infection and severe arthritis at age 5 and a half.  These ailments are never found in sheep of this age.  It's only common in sheep over 10 years of age.  Scientists and media try their best to downplay it by saying cloning had nothing to do with her early aging but they themselves know it isn't true.  They haven't been able to produce any plausible reasons for her early aging either.  The same trend regarding health issues of different kinds have been observed in other clones. 

In my opinion, "changing the creation of Allah" infers to interfering with nature with no positive outcome and arrogant intentions.  Considering this, one would ask, what about some of those cases we read in journals or watch on tv where bisexual or hermaphrodite humans (meaning, those unfortunate people born with both male and female reproductive organs) who are operated to change their gender either to male or female so that they can lead normal lives?  In this case, if such a surgery is done with the sole purpose of improving their lives, I would think it's ok.  In such a case, I think, those undergoing the operation and those performing it should thank Allah that He has provided the knowledge and expertise to humans to resolve this problem.  So, they should try their best to utilize this 'ilm' for the betterment of humans.  It would perhaps be no different than separating conjoined twins with the Grace of Allah for providing humans with the knowhow to carry out this complicated task and for the purpose of improving the lives of those twins joined together.  I think more or less the same can be said about cosmetic surgery.  If it's done with decent intent, i.e. simply to improve one's appearance for self-satisfaction and for the sake of one's family, and of course provided one can afford it financially by having enough superfluous money after meeting all essential expenses and paying zakah, then I would say it's alright. 

As for circumcision, first of all there's a difference between male and female circumcision.  Female circumcision serves no purpose.  It's just a traditional practice that's been handed down from generation to generation based on false beliefs pertaining to sexual performance of the woman.  So, it should be rejected at once.  But the argument of male circumcision comes about in a different light.  Since it's not elucidated in the Quran in relation with one's faith in God, therefore Muslims should not look upon it as an ethical issue.  But it should be looked upon as a practical issue that promotes anatomical and therefore physical cleanliness.  This point has been proven medically.  And the Quran, being a complete and comprehensive guide that deals with all spheres of life has stated that Allah loves those who have a likeness for cleanliness.  Thus, male circumcision quite obviously has a positive purpose medically and that purpose is apparently compatible with the Quran.  Most importantly, it does not change creation.  I mean, even after circumcision, a man remains a man.  It neither changes his personality nor his mindset.  Just because the loose tissue or the foreskin as it's medically called that covers the male genital is a natural occurence of nature during birth, that shouldn't be a reason not to correct it to avoid its negative affects.  Since Allah has provided humankind with the knowledge to knowing the drawbacks of this natural phenomenon, so humans are entitled to take the necessry steps for promoting hygiene and good health.  From the early to mid 20th century onward to date, male circumcision has become just as common in the West as in all Muslim countries.  So, it's not about faith.  However, it happens to be in conformity with the Quranic views on cleanliness.  Whether directly or indirectly, the Quran has always predicted issues of all spheres of life far ahead of humans.  Alhamdulilah.

Finally and briefly, the policy on Stem Cell Research is not right, at least not according to my humble thoughts.  Even though it's done for the purpose of finding cures of terminal and other agonising illnesses, it's done by destroying human embryos (i.e. the first 2 to 3 months of the developing fetus. The description of this developing fetus in the womb has been given very articulately in the Quran, Alhamdulilah).  So, although stem cell research aims at improving and increasing the life span of suffering people, yet it's done at the cost of other unborn lives who are denied the right of developing, coming into this world and leading their own lives.  This is a big ethical issue and as a Muslimah I don't think it's right.  Saving one life by taking another and making it a system does not seem like a proper way to solve a problem. 

And Allah-oh-alim.  May Almighty Allah guide us through the Quran and enable us to make right decisions with humble intentions.  May He accept our supplication.
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Zainab_M
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« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2007, 05:41:22 pm »

Verse 4:119 is another one of those very interesting verses to ponder upon.  My attention has been drawn to it several times with similar thoughts as expressed in this enlightened thread.  I'm reading it carefully and learning a lot.  Thanks sis and bro.

According to my perception, that expression in Verse 4:119 goes deeper than issues like cosmetic surgery, male circumcision (female circumcision must be rejected downright), organ transplants etc. as correctly referred in this thread.  That's because in all such procedures the status of the natural born soul remains the same. Considering this, I would also not say that surgeries done on hermaphrodites (which is for the purpose of giving such unfortunate individuals an identity so that they are not discriminated nor laughed upon) as unethical.  However, those born normal as male or female and yet  want to switch over to the opposite gender for misguided satisfactions would be completely unethical because it harbours a totally wrong & lewd intent. 

Coming back to the exact topic, in my opinion the expression on changing Allah's creation as in Verse 4:119 basically refers to all such changes that involve (or attempt to involve) a new creation altogether by means other than the biological process of reproduction as ordained for all living beings by the Almighty Allah.  The various modern medical doctrines on cloning, spending billions of dollars only for the love of being exultant by thinking that they can defeat the miracles of the Divine Power and deny the Unseen, comes directly into the category of the expression in Verse 4:119. 

To some extent, those multi-billion dollar space projects by NASA and others could also be placed in a similar category because of its enormous cost while millions humans and animals starve in this world.  According to statistics even if one-quarter of this amount was spent to eradicate hunger, the quality of life throughout this planet would improve by leaps and bounds.  Although Allah has not forbidden mankind to explore His universe, mankind must recognize their limitations and accordingly construct rational priorities.   And only Allah knows best

Salaam Alaikum and peace to all Smiley



P.S.
Just for information to brothers and sisters, the series on brief reflections on the Glorious Quraan already began in our Quraan board.  I'm putting a link of a few of those reflections below.  It will be a pleasure to read your inputs along with the respective posts Smiley

The Sun is not stationary, as confirmed in the Quraan
Messengers can be angels as well as humans
Twilight of life makes perception more vivid
Their own bodies will be witnesses against the guilty
Total number of messengers / prophets
Old age - a second childhood
There's much more to the Quran than just literary beauty
'Venue' of the Day of Judgment
Earth's gravitational force
Not just humans, but every living being prostrates before Allah
Guardianship of the Virgin Mary, as in the Quraan
The term "Israel" in the Noble Quraan
Regarding poets ..
None has the power for retribution except Allah
Yes, it's really that important to love, respect & care for parents
Those who desire only this world
Be neither extravagant nor stingy
It's all so temporary here
Follow the Religion of Abraham - NO SECTARIANISM!
When offended, try to respond with grace
Follow NOT that of which you have no knowledge
Reward of Martyrs
On purity - To be read carefully!
Do not get charmed by someone's good turn of fortune
Divine Scripture to be expounded, not concealed
Perseverence in the face of tests & critisizm
Supporting Widows
This does NOT mean temporary marriage!
 
If you browse thru pages 5 and 6 of the Quraan board, you will find several other important reflections.
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« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2007, 10:58:56 am »

Sister Cat Prowler, thanks very much for the new Verse as well as your previous post.

This post would be for the previous Verse under discussion and more specifucally Sister Cat Prowlers views on male circumcision.

It appears sister, with all due kindness, that you have simply put aside all the Verses that speak about Allah's perfection in creation. You referenced a Verse to do with cleanliness. I would disagree with your interpretation on this. Because the Verse about cleanliness in my opinion, can in no way justify circumcision which involves surgically removal of a part of the body. Nor have your intepretation taken the views of the Qur'an as a whole.

We as human beings, have to keep our selves physically clean by way of washing ourselves using water. This is a constant need. The Verse about cleanliness easily interpretes to this. However, to say that cutting a piece of flesh off for the purpose of cleanliness, will be an act in odds with several Verses of the Qur'an that speaks of Allah's perfection in creation, as well as the Verse we are dicussing here about changing Allah's creation. The Verses about cleanliness has to be interpreted in light of all the other Verses in the Qur'an and by way of natural practical way of looking at it. That is, we keep ourselves clean by washing ourselves regularly.

The male foreskin (which is not like our hair or nail as it has full blood circulation and sensory capabilities) actually serves several important functions. The gland underneath is very sensitive and needs to be protected and kept away from friction. The foresking keeps the sensitive gland out of friction's way and protects it. It also has important sensory functions during marital intimacy. The Verses about cleanliness should be interpreted to mean that men have to keep this part of the body clean by regular washing - that is the obvious conscientious way of looking at it. Other parts of the body also perform greater purposes but needs to be cleaned regularly too. Our nose for example, performs several functions. One of the function is that it filters surrounding air of dust. We need to keep our noses clean but it has been designed for a greater purpose.

Several Verses speak of the perfection in creation and there is one Verse that comes to mind which speaks specifically about the creation of human beings and the perfection in the human creation. For me sister, circumcision is completely incompatible with the Qur'an for these reasons.

I believe perhaps a major reason why you are able to accept male circumcision is because it is so widely practiced. If for example, no one in the world practiced circumcision, and one day, you read in the newspaper a case of where someone has been circumcised, you would most probably be completely shocked by the grusome aspect of cutting off a part of the foreskin.

To imply, suggest, or accept a notion that circumcision has more positive sides to it and therefore a healthy thing to do is going against acknowledging Allah's perfection in creating the complete human being (which needs no modification to improve it for whatever reason, be it hygenic or all else). Yes it needs cleaning - but performs important fuctions. Other parts of the body require cleaning too. 

Another point is parents who circumcise their young children. Children have no capability to make informed, well-judged and conscientious decisions themselves. The parents have no right to circumcise them. This is because ALLAH HIMSELF perfected the child's all bodily features in the womb...He made NO mistake in CREATING the foreskin as it is on the male. If the hygenic issue was to be such an unmanageable issue that man has to surgically remove part of the foreskin after the childs birth, Allah would not have created it the way He the Almighty did.

Satan says he will command people to change Allah's creation and that is what he has been succesful in doing with so many people. This changing in creation he says involves cutting-off parts of the creation (ie. cutting the cattle's ears given as an example). He has taken with him millions of people, and do not give into his ploy.

I agree that surgical operations on those who are born with or have abnormal features of the body is in compliance with the Qur'an. This is because such a 'modification' is done in exceptional cases which require surgery (whether for medical or social reasons to bring their quality of life up to a normal standard). These are cases that are anomalous and are deviations from the normal design of Allah's creation, such as hermaphrodites, as sister Zainab mentions.  On the other hand circumcision is done on fully perfected beings which is the entire half of human creation. It establishes that Allah has got something wrong in the default creation of the male human. 

My sister, you have believed in the Qur'an alone - I sincerely pray you can see through your existing views and accept what I am saying to you.

Guidance belongs to Allah alone.

I will comment on the new Verse later, inshaaAllah.

Sister Zainab, thanks for those links. I think the notable advantage in this thread is that we can have an atmosphere of interaction promoting further learning, kept on by a continuation of discussion. Glory be to our Lord, we are all benefitting from it. Ofcourse, we should also continue learning from the other threads.

Speak to you all later, inshaaAllah.
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« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2007, 02:57:48 pm »

"And surely I will lead them astray, and surely I will arouse desires in them, and surely I will command them and they will cut the cattle' ears, and surely I will command them and they will change Allah's creation. Whoso chooseth Satan for a patron instead of Allah is verily a loser and his loss is manifest." [Qur'an 4:119]

I would like to conclude on our dicussion of the above Verse. I think it is important that we have studied all parts of a Verse before moving on. It would be great if all participants ensure adequete coverage of of all parts of the current Verse under discussion is made and enough time has been given to it before a new Verse is put up (just a reminder, not that the new Verse came too quick Smiley ).

The beginning of the Verse says Satan will lead man astray. From another Verse we learn that he will lead all astray except for those who are sincere (ie. the believers). This Verse mentions only one of the ways Satan will lead peple astray.

How can one take Satan as a patron instead of Allah? Obviously, by giving into the example given in the Verse but many other ways too. I would say by giving into the whisperings of one's innerself which seeks to satisfy itself only - the innerself is what Satan whispers into by tellling it to not take up an attitude that would be pleasing to Allah and only find ways to satisfy it self, even if it is against the morality of the Qur'an. It tells people to not observe any limitations in fulfilling its desires and it should only care for itself. By having firm faith in the existance of Allah (like we know human beings exist 'remember Allah as you remember your fathers or even more') and by always being in remembrance of His ever presence can one hope to save him/herself from the ploy of Satan and selfishness of the inner-self. This is how one takes Allah as a patron and not Satan.

A common theme among all the evil-doers in the world such as murders, thieves, rapists, scammers, liers, backbiters, law-breakers, indecency-spreaders etc. is that they possess disbelief in Allah. Had they submitted themselves fully, they would have taken Allah as patron and done good deeds in the world. Satan in the Verse, in a way, symbolises all the evil one can do on earth. Allah, in the Verse, symbolises all the good-deeds one can do on earth. The believing good-doers have taken Allah as a patron and the evil-doers who are disbelievers have taken Satan as a patron. But ironically, in the Herafter Allah continues to be the patron of the believers by rewarding their good deeds in providing them the Garden, while Satan disowns the disbelievers and is no longer a patron.

All praise is due to our Lord, the first and the last! Anyway...so our new Verse is:

"There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them"  [Qur'an 4:159]

I will post my views shortly, inshaaAllah. Meanwhile, further discussion on the Verse from everyone else here is obviously most welcome. Smiley

Peace be to all.
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« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2007, 09:13:15 pm »

Sister Cat Prowler, thanks very much for the new Verse as well as your previous post.

This post would be for the previous Verse under discussion and more specifucally Sister Cat Prowlers views on male circumcision.



Dear enlightened brother, As-Salaam Alaykum and sorry for the delay.   Many, many thanks for your thoughtful response.  I agree with substantial portions of it but not all.  In my view, you are overlooking certain aspects of this topic and the Verse in discussion by slightly confusing different fields of the Quranic Message.  I hope you'll read the following carefully.

I realize perfectly well the importance of being clean through regular washing and bathing.  But when Allah says that He likes those who keep clean, as a person living in the 21st century I would take that beyond just superficial washing.  As civilization and the human mind progresses, it realizes just as well the importance of accepting the issue of cleanliness not just through external washing but also the reality of hygiene of the human anatomy / organs on the basis of more professional methods.  That's when we discover that it's not merely the airborne infections coming into contact with our external skin that can cause negative health issues.  But infections / viruses can also travel farther, beyond the external skin through the ambiguities of nature for which the usual washing will not be enough.  Life in earthly world is hard and this is all about acquiring knowledge to combat the hardships.   Such an approach is one of the very important values of the Noble Quran.  The Quran holds knowledge in high esteem.  This would include spiritual knowledge about understanding Allah which comes first, followed by practical knowledge for the benefit of humanity.   The vital aspect concerning knowledge is to use it wisely and successfully for the purpose of strengthening Faith and promoting humility, not arrogance. 
 
As you read further, you'll know what I mean.

Please be clear, I am NOT at all supporting male circumcision because the crowd around me says so.  Neither does male circumcision mean that Allah's creation is imperfect.  Those are rash, black & white declarations which I avoid myself and I hope others are sensible enough to avoid them too.  My views on male circumcision are purely practical, not religious.  Further, my thoughts are based on the Quran's permission and encouragement to humans to use their rational mind, and particularly to utilize the 'ilm' derived through exploration and proven facts.  Picking out imperfections (or risks) of nature must NOT be taken as discrediting the Expertise of the Almighty God.  Nauzbillah.  This would be similar to the approach of hadith followers who have made critisism of hadith synonymous with critsisim of the Prophet (pbuh).  Nature is not meant to be perfect because that's the way Allah has ordained it.  Just as we are immersed into the enormous goodies of life, we are surrounded by plenty of risks too.  Complete perfection of all such matters can only be found in the next world, not here.   Handling these natural shortcomings is a part of life.  Our success depends upon the depth of our minds and our hard work, and at the same time keeping a balance to avoid any ethical violations.  Allah says in the Quran that He casts the shape of His creatures during birth as pleases Him.  This means natural imperfections (deformities etc.) cannot be ruled out at birth by the Will of Allah.  The birth of hermaphrodites is also stated in the Quraan.  I can't recall that verse at the moment but to paraphrase it, it says that Allah creates whom He desires as male or female or in between.  This again is a phenomenon of nature.  In ancient and middle ages it had no cure.  So people could do nothing to change it.  Now, the knowhow is there to alter and correct it.  Many minds, as per their own personal perceptions could perceive this step as altering the will of God and consider it a violation.  But a careful reflection says otherwise .. at least to me.  Of course, you stated you agreed with this, but I'm merely quoting it as an apt comparison for circumcision which is also a natural phenomenon with several drawbacks.

Another imperfection (or risk) of nature is the danger of being exposed to infections, and one of the primary causes of infections is lack of hygiene that can creep into the system in various ways even if a person washes and bathes a hundred times a day.

Your medical insight about the foreskin appears to comply very little with the professional findings as of present.  The foreskin around the male genital actually serves no purpose, the details of which are stated at the end of this post.   This article is by the well known British physician, Dr. David Hawker.   Not to mention, Dr. Hawker's write-up on male circumcision is just one of the similar findings of numerous medical experts of the 20th and 21st centuries that state the vital benefits of this procedure.  Also know, majority (if not all) of these medical experts come from secular backgrounds and are not trying to promote any religious values.  This should further clarify that their research is unbiased and only for practical benefits involving hygiene and good health.  The fact that it involves surgery on a part of the male organ  that's often taken as a negative topic for discussion should not create a scary picture in the minds of people.  The physical issues involving male circumcision must be taken into consideration carefully with no memories of old traditions to influence our minds.   It will then relate to the aspect of cleanliness in a much broader perspective.  And needless to say, an in-depth and knowledgeable perspective of any matter with proven benefits to humanity is much more compatible with the ideology of the Quran than ideas based on more shallow analysis.

I would like to add that the foreskin of the male genital is not the only part of the human body that does not serve any purpose.  There are other organs too  that are similarly useless and can be a source of infections or serious ailments.

 For example, the human appendix.  Uptil now, after years of research, the appendix has been found to have no known purpose at all.  It's just a worm-shaped organ that sticks out from the top portion of the large intestine. It often carries life-threatening risks.  It can get easily inflammed either due to continued consumption of rich & greasy food, or often for unknown reasons.  Not just that, malignant tumors can grow in a normal appendix and spread to other parts of the body.  It is a common practice among surgeons that if a patient is undergoing any abdominal operation, the appendix is usually removed even if it's healthy because it serves no purpose to the human body but can be a source of trouble in the future.  Removing a healthy appendix has been found to have absolutely no negative affects on one's health.

Similarly, women past child bearing age are often advised to remove their ovaries for precisely the same reason.  Ovaries after menopause (which can occur anytime between 40 - 55) serve no purpose and can cause ovarian cancer, a very deceptive killer disease that has the high rate among both menopausal women as well as younger women.  Again, a natural factor but can become seriously problematic in some cases if left unattended. 

Male circumcision is supposed to be looked upon in much the same way with far-sighted and long term consequences like other surgeries.  Studying the positive details of male circumcision from medical & health perspective (which are many) does not by any stretch of my imagination suggest to me that Satan is whispering into our ears.  Let's not forget, in the 12th and 13th centuries (after the downfall of Islamic renaissance which made tremendous progress in field of medicine and surgery) the European renaissance began with its center at Venice.  It was the first time that medics began studying by dissecting human cadavers - the intestines, liver, kidneys etc.  At that time Europe was ruled by the Catholic Church (which had already deviated from the Divine values of the Almighty God), termed dissections as "evil" and the "handiwork of Satan" and banned the practice completely.

You will still find many Christian sects like Mormoms and Qakers, even many orthodox Catholics who do not agree with the concept of blood transfusion, thinking that it would de-naturalize the natural creation of God.

I would like to further quote sister zeynab's statement that struck me as an important theme of Verse 4:119 when she wrote - "That's because in all such procedures the status of the natural born soul remains the same."  This is a very eye-opening perception.  Be it male circumcision, removal of appendix / ovary, cosmetic surgery, blood transfusion etc.etc., are all procedures on the already created natural human being.  When Allah talks about changing His creation, that is a very different concept.  At least that's the way I read it.  It apparently refers to constructing a new creature by tampering with the seeds and stems acquired through natural sources (i.e. through other living beings) and yet boasting about creating life to get credit and downplay the wonders of Allah.  I would interpret such change of creations as cloning only.  Perhaps, the practice of surrogate births can also come within this category in a slightly lesser degree.

There's often a very fine line between wisdom and ignorance .. depending on how a person contemplates.  It's important for us to deepen the mark of this divide so that we firmly stay planted within the bounds of wisdom by not allowing ourselves to drift to the other side.  In my opinion, such an awareness would be a much better way to fasten our grip on the Noble Quran.

Thanks brother.  May Allah bless you for your sincere efforts. 
 
Your sister in Islam
CP



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The common view in Britain...
By Dr. David Hawker

As part of being untaught we take the attitude: If it ain't broken, don't fix it, ie, if there is no immediate problem do nothing. Only circumcise if something goes wrong - often reluctantly as a last resort after painful and prolonged treatment. This is in stark contrast to the rest of healthcare where the motto: Prevention is better than cure is stressed. There is a problem with thinking as we do. When does circumcision become necessary?

There are a few situations where it is clearcut. If there is only a small opening in the foreskin so that passing urine is difficult, or when the foreskin is painful to pull back during an erection or won't return forward again. The latter is an emergency situation needing urgent surgery to avoid really serious consequences.

But there are many other situations where circumcision helps prevent future disease or discomfort. We should seek to prevent problems arising, rather than deal with the problems once they occur. Let us look at some of these, in no particular order.

1 Where the foreskin cannot comfortably be pulled back over the glans (knob) of the *****. Now, up until the age of five or six, many boys cannot retract their foreskins - mums and dads beware - if you try too early you may do some damage. Above the age of six or seven, it is important that boys be taught how to clean under the foreskin, making sure the skin is pulled right back. If your son cannot do that he may need circumcising. Boys frequently forget or deliberately avoid this routine and run into difficulties.

2 If the foreskin cannot easily be moved when the ***** becomes hard, or if that causes pain - this is not only a childhood problem. At puberty, as the ***** grows and masturbation begins, problems may emerge. Some men have pain on intercourse, which they then try to avoid for that reason. If so, you (and your partner) will benefit from your circumcision just as many boys do. Some men are afraid to admit to this problem, but it is curable by circumcision.

3 Where you and your partner keep getting 'thrush' infections.Some call this 'sexual ping-pong'. One keeps passing it back to the other. Of course, you may first try creams or tablets from your doctor or chemist, but if it keeps coming back, circumcision will cure it. It did for me. The foreskin is a warm and moist incubator under which infections can easily develop.

So as you can see, although things aren't actually broken, they may need fixing to eliminate misery and promote a more comfortable trouble-free life. How long does it take to fix? About 20 minutes!

Are there benefits from circumcision?

There are several:

1 Many older men, who have bladder or prostate gland problems, also develop difficulties with their foreskins due to their surgeon's handling, cleaning, and using instruments. Some of these patients will need circumcising. Afterwards it is often astonishing to find some who have never ever seen their glans (knob) exposed before!

2 Some older men develop cancer of the ***** - about 1 in 1000 - fairly rare, but tragic if you or your son are in that small statistic. Infant circumcision gives almost 100% protection, and young adult circumcision also gives a large degree of protection.

3 Cancer of the cervix in women is due to the Human Papilloma Virus. It thrives under and on the foreskin from where it can be transmitted during intercourse. An article in the British Medical Journal in April 2002 suggested that at least 20% of cancer of the cervix would be avoided if all men were circumcised. Surely that alone makes it worth doing.

4 Protection against HIV and AIDS. Another British Medical Journal article in May 2000 suggested that circumcised men are 8 times less likely to contract the HIV virus. (It is very important here to say that the risk is still far too high and that condoms and safe sex must be used - this applies also to preventing cancer of the cervix in women who have several partners.)

A BBC television programme in November 2000 showed two Ugandan tribes across the valley from one another. One practised circumcision and had very little AIDS, whereas, it was common in the other tribe, who then also started circumcising. This programme showed how the infection thrived in the lining of the foreskin, making it much easier to pass on.

5 Similarly, some protection also exists against other sexually transmitted infections. Accordingly, if a condom splits or comes off, there is some protection for the couple. However, the only safe sex is to stick to one partner or abstain.

6 Lots of men, and their partners, prefer the appearance of their ***** after circumcision, It is odour-free, it feels cleaner, and they enjoy better sex. Awareness of a good body image is a very important factor in building self confidence.

7 Balanitis is an unpleasant, often recurring, inflammation of the glans. It is quite common and can be prevented by circumcision.

8 Urinary tract infections sometimes occur in babies and can be quite serious. Circumcision in infancy makes it 10 times less likely.

What about my son?

Dads - you are responsible for discussing these matters with your sons as soon as they reach an age when you can communicate with them. And, single mums - so are you, because nobody else will do so. There is no examination of the ***** in school medicals.

Your teenage sons, especially the younger ones, will have almost total ignorance. They may secretly be having problems. Maybe they wish they had been circumcised for either body image or medical reasons. Help them to be informed and aware of their options. Don't cop out, there are leaflets available to help you.

You need to check your younger sons (age 5+) and teach them hygiene and be sure all is working properly. Try to cultivate a situation in which they will be comfortable to share any concerns they may have - like soreness. Remind them to pull back their foreskins whenever they pee as it helps to keep the foreskin clean. It also makes it easier to aim and assists them to avoid spraying the toilet - just as circumcision does.

What about infant circumcision?

You need to think about this calmly, because some people are getting angry about it in the USA, even using inflamatory words like 'genital mutilation'. Make sure you are fully informed because you as the parent have the responsibility to make decisions on behalf of your child - like the big decisions about vaccinations, knowing that for long term benefit to the child and others, the pain of the injection and often the fever which follows are worthwhile.

Having read this leaflet, you are in a better position to make decisions. Circumcision can become an emergency, or the foreskin may cause considerable problems, not least when sexual intercourse starts or in older age. Remember, it may be a taboo subject for most people - but it should not be so for you.

You may feel you could help your son avoid some of these problems once and for all by having him circumcised early in life (the best time in the healthy baby is 7-10 days old). Not only is it a simpler procedure, needing no stitches, but he will not remember the event. He will also grow up never knowing anything different. Boys circumcised later in life may find it a more embarrassing experience. For a while afterwards they will feel the sensitivity of the permanently exposed glans, but will gradually adapt to it. Thus, circumcision in babyhood can be a very sensible decision - especially for a single mum with a boy and no man around the house. If you do circumcise your son, you must explain as soon as he is old enough to understand, what happened and why it was done. This helps acceptance and avoids ignorance. (I used to think some of my friends were born with a very different ***** from mine until I learned about circumcision at age 13.)

You might equally sensibly decide to wait and see, but do be ready to take action quickly if problems start to arise.

If you are thinking about infant circumcision, there are leaflets describing it in detail. You would need to discuss it with the midwife or doctor before birth to plan it. You may encounter opposition. Remember- it is your choice to do what you think best for your son in the long term.  The procedure takes only a few minutes.

Source: http://www.circinfo.com/benefits/bmc.html

Also read Medical Benefits from Circumcision by Dr. Brian J. Morris (of course it's about male circumcision)
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« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2007, 07:45:35 pm »

Assalamu alaikum sister Cat Prowler,

Sorry for the delay. However, after reading your post I have concluded that you have made your mind up about this issue.

There just too many things to address in your post. I will just briefly highlight some points.

  • You say male circumcision does not mean Allah's circumcision is not perfect. I beg to differ. To imply that male circumcision has more benefit than leaving it as God created it in the wombs is inferring that Allah's creation is imperfect.
  • There is no differentiation between practicality and religion, religion defines everything (the Qur'an does not seperate the two)
  • The Qur'an's encouragement on exploration and rational thinking leads to conclude that the circumcision is not in comformity with the Qur'an
  • Nature IS perfect. Allah says so. I am not sure why you think nature is imperfect. You may be getting confused with the concept of 'weakness' which is for example, man's need for food, water, sleep etc. (the systems by which these inputs are processed and utilised are PERFECT).
  • "The birth of hermaphrodites is also stated in the Quraan. I can't recall that verse at the moment but to paraphrase it, it says that Allah creates whom He desires as male or female or in between."<<< PLEASE get back to me with the reference for this Verse.
  • What you tried to do is prove with a Qur'anic Verse that DEFORMITIES like hermaphrodites is NORMAL per the Qur'an...and from there inferred that given that this is normal act of creation and we can operate on hermaphrodites, then by that logic we should be able to operate on male creation as an acceptable thing....your argument rests on the alleged Quranic Verse you refer to above, so please provide me with the reference as soon as you can.
  • I am absolutely shocked how you could say the foreskin on the male serves no purpose! As I had already stated the fundamental purposes of it and you said what you said, I take it this is your personal opinion which you are not willing to change.
  • I find it very naive that one should point out POSSIBLR ailments and diseases in order to justify cutting flesh off, making it a standard (need I say did God not know this?). Ailments and diseases can happen to all organs of the body.
  • Please look into the most recenty discovery about the appendix, read "Recent Interpretation: Immune Use" and "Latest Interpretation: Maintaining gut flora" in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermiform_appendix
  • "male circumcision, removal of appendix / ovary, cosmetic surgery, blood transfusion etc.etc., are all procedures on the already created natural human being."<< Very well entiwined there sister!....you mixed circumcision with operations that arise from medical urgency and need. Plastic surgery is an unQur'anic thing to do if you want to appear younger or more beautiful. It is that one does not accept that s/he will age and die but wishes to remain beautiful forever...or is simply ungrateful for how s/he is created and wants more. However a need would be deformities or abnormalities 'requiring' plastic surgery
  • Any surgery or operation, including removal of appendix or ovary is only approved by the Qur'an when it is due to a real medical need. These internal organs are not designed to be removed as a preemptive step but are designed to remain there until death unless a rare, abnormal medical condition is to develop (unlike how you seem to indicate, diseases and ailments are not a likely phenomenon but an unlikely and abnormal phenomenon). Or should all post menopause women be taking out their ovaries and evey one in the human population start taking out their appendix (and thats ASSUMING it serves no purpose)?
  • "When Allah talks about changing His creation, that is a very different concept." No, it is not different by the slightest of immagination. In fact it is all too close to the what the Qur'an is stating......The Qur'an is giving you an example of what this is "cut the cattles ears"........very analogous with "cut the foreskin".
  •  
  • Overall, you seem to be requesting for a more 'distant' interpretation of what is very obvious and and reasonable interpretation of Verses of the Qur'an.
  •  

“Such is He who knows all that is unseen as well as what it seen, the Almighty, the Merciful, who gave everything its perfect form: He first created man from clay, then made his descendants from an extract of underrated fluid. Then He moulded him…” [Qur’an 32:6] 

"The handiwork of Allah Who perfected all things" [Qur'an 27:88]

"Blessed be Allah, the Best of Creators! (Qur'an, 23:14)

“Woe to man (insane)! How ungrateful is he! From what thing does God create him? He creates him from a droplet, He PROPORTIONS him…” [Qur’an 80:17-19]

“Does man think he will be left alone? Was he not just a drop of spilt out sperm, which became a clinging form, which God shaped in DUE-PROPORTION.” [Qur’an 75:36-39]

"And surely I will lead them astray, and surely I will arouse desires in them, and surely I will command them and they will cut the cattle' ears, and surely I will command them and they will change Allah's creation. Whoso chooseth Satan for a patron instead of Allah is verily a loser and his loss is manifest."  [Qur’an 4:119]


Unfortunately, I have a feeling there is nothing I can say to change your views, except as God wills. Perhaps you have circumcised your sons, I dont know.

Have a great Eid sister.

Assalamu alaikum.
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« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2007, 11:33:03 pm »

 salamem


"There is no differentiation between practicality and religion, religion defines everything (the Qur'an does not seperate the two)"

Agree.  I've always maintained this.  But didn't you observe that each and every practical issue that I raised was backed by none else than the Noble Quran?  When I say 'practical,' I mean the practical side of the Lecture (Quran) itself since the Quran is a complete code of life. Alhumdulilah.


"The Qur'an's encouragement on exploration and rational thinking leads to conclude that the circumcision is not in comformity with the Qur'an"

I conclude completely the opposite and I've made that crystal clear with my realistic argument.


"Nature IS perfect. Allah says so. I am not sure why you think nature is imperfect. You may be getting confused with the concept of 'weakness' which is for example, man's need for food, water, sleep etc. (the systems by which these inputs are processed and utilised are PERFECT)."

No .. this is not what I meant at all.  Though it's a valid point, but my meaning was quite different.   The Quran is much too clear to me to get so needlessly confused.  I quote what I stated earlier: "Just as we are immersed into the enormous goodies of life, we are surrounded by plenty of risks too."  Just about every aspect of nature isn't supposed to be perfect nor pleasing nor appealing.  This is the will of God.  Nature is an amalgam of pleasantness and unpleasantness.  It is this side of Allah's creation that also constitutes the test for humanity.  Denying this aspect will be denying the realism of the Quran with make-belief fantasy.   True that Allah praises His natural creations.  However, such verses of the Quran do not imply that nature doesn't have a reverse side that poses risks and threats for all living beings.  Trees, colorful flowers, mountains, rivers, rippling streams, cool breeze, the beauty of humans, the beauty of animals are the pleasant things of nature.  Hot dry deserts, biting cold, storms, hurricanes, floods, tsunamis, volcanoes, earthquakes, lots of diseases etc. etc. are the unpleasant facts of nature that cannot be associated with perfection and neither are they supposed to be.  In fact many of these phenomena are mentioned in the Quran as representing punishments for disobedience.  Thus, nature is fraught with ups & downs that test our Faith, perseverence and strength.  Thus, Allah says in the Quran that simply saying that you believe is not going to be enough.  Everyone will be tested in some way or another to prove or disprove what they claim.   Like I said earlier, you are focused only on a part of the Quranic Message and have totally overlooked the other half, making your argument incredibly lopsided.  The very logic you deem correct to prove your own dogma is refuted by yourself the next moment for a similar or identical issue raised by the other person. 


"The birth of hermaphrodites is also stated in the Quraan. I can't recall that verse at the moment but to paraphrase it, it says that Allah creates whom He desires as male or female or in between."<<< PLEASE get back to me with the reference for this Verse."

I surely will brother, InshAllah, as soon as I find it.  I've come across that verse not just once but umpteens of times.  I don't know how you can't recall it.


What you tried to do is prove with a Qur'anic Verse that DEFORMITIES like hermaphrodites is NORMAL per the Qur'an...and from there inferred that given that this is normal act of creation and we can operate on hermaphrodites, then by that logic we should be able to operate on male creation as an acceptable thing....your argument rests on the alleged Quranic Verse you refer to above, so please provide me with the reference as soon as you can.

Your misinterpretations are too extensive.  I wonder if it's intentional for your understanding can't possibly be that poor.  I have NOT tried to prove that birth of hermaphrodites is normal.  On the contrary I've made it ample clear that such births are the freaks of nature, further proving that as per the Will of God, nature does hurl any number of challenges in life.


I am absolutely shocked how you could say the foreskin on the male serves no purpose! As I had already stated the fundamental purposes of it and you said what you said, I take it this is your personal opinion which you are not willing to change.

Try to calm down and return down-to-earth, brother.  Neither you nor I belong to the medical profession.  For that reason I quoted 2 detailed reports from professionals whose unbiased knowledge on this matter far exceeds yours and mine.  I don't think I need to say more on this.


I find it very naive that one should point out POSSIBLR ailments and diseases in order to justify cutting flesh off, making it a standard 

When each and every theory of advanced medical research has given preference to performing this procedure than not, it certainly has a more solid basis than a common person's musings.  It only proves the useless nature of that biological matter in question.  As a sane and educated human being, I would naturally conclude that the problem lies with your ideas rather than the entire medical profession of the 20th and 21st centuries around the globe!


Please look into the most recenty discovery about the appendix

This isn't a "recent discovery" brother.  Since a long time it's been casually suggested thru a minority of studies that appendix probably (mark my word, probably) harbors 'good germs.'  But this notion has taken the back seat ever since because of the far more widely proven fact that life has gone on just as well without the appendix, minus the threats of painful inflammation and fatal tumors.  The link you posted suggests nothing beyond that. When health experts decide what should be made a standard, it's done on the basis of weighing the pros and cons.  Does the human body benefit more without an appendix or with it?  The answer is derived from the careful readings which have asserted over and over again that the use (if any) of keeping this organ is totally overshadowed by the risks of its grave and sudden drawbacks.  It's similar with the foreskin.  With that 'mr. know-all' approach, even if you reject the professional theory and insist that it has certain uses, the undeniable truth prevails that its negative consequences far outweigh those mythical benefits.  It appears that you've studied this Wikipedia link much the same way as you've studied the Quran.  You're only focused on matters you select to believe in and slip the rest under the carpet.

Here's another very apt example of what I stated above, if you at all have the desire to read further. Hormone Replacement Therapy was a very popular medication for women over 50 to prevent heart attacks and osteoporosis despite the truth that it increasesd the risk of breast cancer by 20%.  But it was found to reduce the risk of heart disease by more than 40%.  Since more elderly women die of heart conditions than breast cancer, the benefit of HRT was thought to be greater than it drawback and doctors kept prescribing it.  But about 4 or 5 years ago it was discovered after a more detailed research that HRT medication helps less than 2% in improving / preventing coronary conditions and osteoporosis, and yet it carries that 20% risk of breast cancer.  Now the drawbacks far outweighed the benefits and HRT medication is almost non-existent.  It's exactly the same method of approach with appendix and the foreskin, except that matters concerning the appendix and foreskin are much more decisive cases with simple and consistent results for safety compared to HRT.

male circumcision, removal of appendix / ovary, cosmetic surgery, blood transfusion etc.etc., are all procedures on the already created natural human being."<< Very well entiwined there sister!....you mixed circumcision with operations that arise from medical urgency and need.

Wrong again brother.  You make it sound that I'm comparing these procedures.  Kindly try to understand before you blast a comment.  I'm not comparing these various procedures.  I'm simply saying and agreeing with sis zeynab's view that the above procedures do not have any bearing on the human soul.  Having said that, these are superficial matters in the light of Verse 4:119 and CANNOT be taken as changing Allah's creation.  This is my perception and only Allah knows best, not you nor anyone else.


Plastic surgery is an unQur'anic thing to do if you want to appear younger or more beautiful.

This seems to be a 'second phase' on this topic where you've taken to talking like one of those presumptuous and judgmental shiekhs rather than a Quran aloner.  This comment of yours is totally beyond the pail and simply not worth responding to.  The Quran says nothing to deem plastic surgery "un-Quranic."  It's for Him to decide the outcome. As people of this planet, we have absolutely no business to pass such sweeping judgments. 


"It is that one does not accept that s/he will age and die but wishes to remain beautiful forever...or is simply ungrateful for how s/he is created and wants more."

If someone wants to look nice to please their spouse and family, has the superfluous money and is thankful to Allah for providing the knowhow to look more presentable, who are we to condemn that person with such harsh and narrow ideas?  A person coming out of a plastic surgeon's clinic after enhancing her / his looks could be a lot more grateful to Allah than me or you have ever been.  They could be perfect believers in Allah performing all the duties of prayers and good conduct.  We aren't capable of knowing the inside story of a soul.  This falls strictly within the domain of Allah.  I don't know why so many people find it so difficult to quit their own responsibilities and interfere with His.


"Any surgery or operation, including removal of appendix or ovary is only approved by the Qur'an when it is due to a real medical need." 

This sounds too categorical.  Quote the Quran please to support it directly, that anyone undergoing a procedure for cosmetic purposes is a 'sinner.'  It would be expected if I heard such belligerent judgmentalism from sheikhs Ahmed Kutty or Jibril Hadad or the Pope or one of the bishops at the Vatican.  But it sounds more than a little weird coming from one who claims to have understood the Quran and the existence of God so confidently. 


In fact it is all too close to the what the Qur'an is stating......The Qur'an is giving you an example of what this is "cut the cattles ears"........very analogous with "cut the foreskin".

Taubah!  your ignorance throws me off my chair !!!  You are comparing a meaningless & superstitious pagan ritual on animals with a surgery carrying enormous proven benefits in the modern era.  This statement of yours takes the cake!  Words fail me.   In his article that I quoted, Dr. David Hawker had cautioned readers exactly against such talks from limited and opinionated quarters who often make little knowledge a dangerous thing.


Unfortunately, I have a feeling there is nothing I can say to change your views,  

You bet .. but you are not the only one who feels that way .. rest assured about that.


Perhaps you have circumcised your sons,

We'll do for our son whatever we deem genuinely to be in his best interest and he knows it.  He has never been unblessed in that, Alhumdulilah, which is the reason why he's such a happy and loving kid.  No one can think of a child's welfare with as much depth and feelings as his or her own parents.  The sincere concern of parents is far more meaningful and real than the words of strangers or debaters.  Your move to question the decision of a child's parents based on your personal, shallow and emotional ideas displayed very poor taste.  Reminds me of how the Catholic Church didn't trust parents raising their kids as perfect Christians in the middle ages and often snatched them away to be raised by the Church.  It's the same mindset and a scary one.  It brings to light yet again the perils posed by attitudes of complete infallibility of one's views that invariably slash the rational side of the mind.  My belief about there being a very very fine line that's almost been erased between Sunni/Shiia hardliners and modern thinkers is getting more and more evident with time.  Proves to me that rigidity, labels of self-perfection and pushy imposition of one's opinion is a part of human nature, not associated with sects or religion. Sister zeynab has posted some very beneficial articles on this issue in the writing board viz Kidnapping of Edgardo Mortarda by the Church and Flashbacks on the Inquisition.  While reading them it's hard not to observe the striking resemblance of coercion that many of us practice online and offline with each other.

I conclude with the words that Allah mentions in chapter 109 of verse 6: "Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion."

Salaams and peace

Eid-al-Adha Mubarak and a peaceful 2008 bringing contentment and health.
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« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2007, 01:37:17 am »


[li]"The birth of hermaphrodites is also stated in the Quraan. I can't recall that verse at the moment but to paraphrase it, it says that Allah creates whom He desires as male or female or in between."<<< PLEASE get back to me with the reference for this Verse.[/li]

Verses 50 of Surah 42 (As-Shura), in my opinion, refers to being a mix of both genders, not male and female siblings separately though I don't rule out that meaning either as only Allah knows best.  Considering the fact that hermaphrodites by birth do exisit in the world, and that is a reality of nature, strengthens my opinion that the verse could very well mean that.

Unto Allah belongeth the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth. He createth what He will. He bestoweth female (offspring) upon whom He will, and bestoweth male (offspring) upon whom He will;
Or He mingleth them, males and females, and He maketh barren whom He will. Lo! He is Knower, Powerful. (42:49-50)
- Pickthall

Allah's is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth; He creates what He pleases; He grants to whom He pleases daughters and grants to whom He pleases sons.
Or He makes them of both sorts, male and female; and He makes whom He pleases barren; surely He is the Knowing, the Powerful.
  (42:49-50) -Shakir



"The handiwork of Allah Who perfected all things" [Qur'an 27:88]

"Blessed be Allah, the Best of Creators! (Qur'an, 23:14)[/size]

“Does man think he will be left alone? Was he not just a drop of spilt out sperm, which became a clinging form, which God shaped in DUE-PROPORTION.” [Qur’an 75:36-39]


Thanks for quoting the above beautiful verses, brother.  Alhumdulilah.  In my opinion the references you have in mind concerning these verses on perfection point at the general system of His creation which include the physical features of the planet and human development in the womb.  I don't know how you can stretch these verses to interpret that every single aspect of  nature and the human figure is an embodiment of perfection which can bring no woes.  When we pick on the imperfections, it should not be taken as a mistake on the part of God, nauzbillah a hunderd times.  That's not the insinuation at all.  Whatever imperfections (or call it hardships, dangers, health hazards, deformities etc.) are seen in any sphere of nature is ordained by Allah with just as much His Will as the perfections that He created.  I would also clarify that it's NOT that Allah isn't able to correct these imperfections, but He chooses not to do that which happens to be a part of His plans in connection with our lives, sometimes as a response to our conduct and intentions, and sometimes as a test to see our reaction. 

As for verse 27:88, it carries a specific reference.  It's about the Last Day when the hills and mountains that appear so strong and solid will be destroyed and seen flying across the sky the way we see the clouds moving.  Therefor I don't see this verse connected with the topic of this thread at all.

27:87. And (remind them of) the Day when the Trumpet will be blown, and all who are in the heavens and the earth will start in fear, save him whom Allah willeth. And all come unto Him, humbled.
27:88. And thou seest the hills thou deemest solid flying with the flight of clouds: the doing of Allah Who perfecteth all things. Lo! He is Informed of what ye do.


As-salaam Alaykum and peace
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« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2007, 07:59:22 pm »

I have looked at the Verse in detail and here is my view.

The interpretation that this Verse refers to the mixing of two sexes is erroneous for the following reasons:

1) Reading the original arabic gives the first most obvious understanding that God gives both male and female to whom He wills. Notice the term 'both' used by me - that is how the Verses is expressing the act giving both male and female children. The root word Za Wa Ja, apart from the obvious husband and wife meaning, has meanings such as 'two, pair'...depending on how it is used. Here is how the Verse is to be read naturally:



The "pairs / twos" are refering to males and females (just mentioned previously in the previous Verse). The arabic simply states using the root Za Wa Ja, we give to them [parents] the two sexes, males and females. In English, it should be rendered 'We give both to them...'. Most translators, translate it in this way. Pikthall not being one of them - he seem to have opted for a far fetched translation defying the common understanding as well as common sense.

2) Another reasoning is the structure and flow of the Verse itself. To some parents Allah gives just boys, to others He gives just girls, they have no control over what they may desire. But to some Allah gives both boys and girls - this is a natural continuation of the Verse from saying God giving only boys to some and only girls to others.

3) Lastly, we should use our knowledge that human beings are born only as males and females as standard (unless in very rare circumstances). The human DNA contains either the make-up of male or female human as the default in Allah's creation. And we keep this in mind when reading this Verse.
 
Thats all on Verse 42:50 from me.

Just a last few words on perfection of nature...my view is that Allah's creation/nature is completely perfect down to the last atom. There is absolutely no limitation or restriction to the word 'perfection' when applied to nature / Allah's creation and as used in the Qur'an. To the fullest sense of the word, Allah's creation is perfect. This is my view.

Lastly, thank you for the detailed response. I appreciate it very much. We will just have to 'agee to differ'. Smiley

Peace.
 



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« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2007, 12:00:00 am »

PS. The Verse about the the Last Day and disintegration of mountains which mentions Allah's perfection in everything is valid.

Allah explains what will happen to the mountains and then says......"Sunn'aAllah - allazee athqana kulla shay-in" ....which is simply "the handiwork of God - the one who perfected all things"....

That is, it is "Sun'aAllah" (handiwork of God).....and who is God?...."allazee athqana kulla shay-in"..."the one who PERFECTED (athqana) EVERYTHING (kulla shay-in)"

Allah is stating that it is Him who perfected everything (kulla shay-in) He created. There is no linking between the mountains etc. you were mentioning. It is a stated seperately as an attribute of Allah. "the one who PERFECTED EVERYTHING (athqana kulla shay-in)". And 'everything' means everything.

Therefore, the Verse is completely relevant in all respect.
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« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2007, 06:06:34 am »

LOL - dear brother, I've never had any problems with agreeing to disagree.  That's just the way it should be.  I respect your opinion to the fullest .. many of which I agree with but there are some which I strongly disapprove.  Nonetheless I respect all.  Therefore I hope you will take my past and present disagreements in the spirit it has always been intended.  I suppose your agreement and disagreement 'graph' would also draw a similar picture as mine Smiley

(1)  Regarding V.27:87 & 88, you are viewing it with a different twist than what I have in mind.    It's clear enough to know that this verse talks about one of the descriptions of Doomsday without any mincing of words.   That meaning got obscured because you quoted only a portion of it.  The 2 verses (27:87 and 88) together make the message complete.  In the last sentence of Verse 27:88 when Allah mentions "Allah Who perfecteth all things" .. is about those aspects of nature and His creation that are meant to be perfect, and undoubtedly the dismantling & winding up of His creation of nature (flight of clouds included) are of His perfections.   But this doesn't change the status of various other natural aspects, also the creation of Allah, that are meant to be tests, trials and challenges for humans on earth.  As per Allah's Will, tests and trials of naure can't be categorized as perfections otherwise they wouldn't be tests, and Allah has made it very clear in the Quran that these trials and challenges do await us on earth.  It's a very important message of the Quran that no believer can deny.  I would look upon it as Divine logic that eventually translates into practical logic.  After all, the Quran is a very practical Book based completely on reason from cover to cover.  Alhumdulilah.  For instance, compare a picturesque scene with a volcanic eruption.  While we would all enjoy a bright beautiful day in the green grasslands, we would be horrified at the thought of being swept away by volcanic ash and lava.  Yet both are natural phenomena.

(2)  Regarding 42:49-50 about a possible reference to the birth of hermaphrodites, thanks for a further clarification.  Though non of the translations I've come across have explained the relevant term as "pairs" or "twos," I do look upon this as a possibility.  However, again, that's one side of the issue ordained by Allah.  There's also another side which I already mentioned in my previous talkback.  Even if this particular verse doesn't refer to hermaphrodites, their birth is a practical truth of nature and can't be considered a falsehood.  Of course I agree that such births are rare, and as you also explained the default nature of human DNA has components of either male or female.  Yet we know on the basis of practical happenings that that default DNA is occasionally subject to freak changes which at times results in the birth of the 'third gender.'  This further proves that periodically nature has its own ways of taking different turns other than the normal track.   Not to mention, abnormalities by birth have a very diverse list, the birth of hermaphrodites being just one of them.  But any abnormal birth is just as much a phenomenon of nature as a normal birth for which Allah has His reasons.  We, as humans, are not entitled to probe into it.  One simply has to accept it and handle it as ethically as they can according to their situation and resources.   I see this as one of the occasions that constitutes the aspect of tests and perseverence for it's never easy for the parents nor the child to cope with any type of abnormality that child may have derived at birth. 


One of the immensely beautiful characteristics I've observed within the Noble Quran is that every reality, logic and commandment are interwoven, presenting the most perfect set of Laws in its entirety.   But if we try to break it up by selective study of the Quran, taking some of its contents into consideration and leaving out some, our arguments turn fallacious.  Therefore Allah says that the Quran must be accepted in full, not in part.  This includes reward & punishment, love & threat, happiness & grief, trials & relief and so on. 

Pesonally, I strongly believe that we must never feel the need to overlook or even downplay any portion of the Quran.  Every single content of the Quran is indispensible, having its own importance and value. 

If Allah's decision was to make earthly nature perfect in all fields, why would He banish Adam and Eve from the Garden and send them here as a punishment for their disobedience?  Obviously the lesson was to send them from a perfect place to a not-too-perfect place and He has made this point abundantly clear in the Quran.

Salaams and peace, always.   
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« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2007, 10:01:46 pm »



Thanks for the reply.

Both are perfect in their design, heaven as well as earth.

Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2008, 03:23:34 am »

Praise be to Allah .. very constructive and educational thread.  I like the way both brother and sister have given the connection between Qur'an and real life. 

About birth of hermaphrodite doesn't have to do with DNA as I understand it.  Medical science says that this happens when a normal growing female fetus gets exposed to an excess of male hormone in the womb.  This is mostly due to natural causes when mother's body produces too much male hormone because of gland function disorders or sometimes the mother can also have male hormone-producing tumor in the body.  The unnatural cause can only be if the mother intentionally consumes male hormone (or testestorone as it's called) medication.  But why would anyone do this?

As-Salam Alaykum and a peaceful 2008 to everyone  hiyaaa
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